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Discussion in 'Ethics and Philosophy' started by david b, Oct 28, 2006.
This is simple.
Is it okay to post images of Nazi memorabilia here on APUG?
I would say it all depends on context.
Those who would ignore history are doomed to repeat it. Perhaps a young person viewing the photograph may ask questions about the Nazis and their historical signifigance. That would be good thing.
Jason said it.
Another black and white reactionary poll. Here's my answer: it depends - but mostly yes.
How about a poll if is OK to talk about the Nazis? Read about them? Write about them? Publish articles about them? Make films about them? Discuss about them in a public subway? KNOW about them? THINK about them?
What's next because of this one image, are we going to label APUG anti-semetic?
While we're on the subject why not make a list of images we shouldn't post - let's see:
Two men in a passionate embrace stirred up heated words from some of you - they're out
An exposed erect penis was another
Anything having to do with sex is out
Crying babies - especially if their candy was taken away from them is no no
Body parts is just gross
Then there was that incident of images of a body after a debauched surgery - not for the delicate to see
What about an image of an Aussie Aboriginal? Very few know that even taking the image is offensive
Images of the insides of sacred temples is a no
Definitely no images of any US airport immigration, security or customs area
What did I miss? Let's make a sticky.
Well, every individual has the right to think what they want about the subject, as far as I`m concerned, NO!
This was a very borderline situation, one that has never come up before in the gallery. but due to the number of reported emails from the image I decided to remove it. I tend to consider 1-3 reported emails as controversial, 3-5 as borderline and 6-10 as needing to be removed at the wishes of the community. It is extremely rare an image has been reported 6-10 times or more so that to me is an indicator it's just out of place here.
I find this to be a sad sad day at APUG. Too bad, I thought this community was above this.
that's the final wurd if I've ever heard it.
Then again. There does not appear to be a "rule", so I'd imagine that in time (i.e. not today, and not next week) things might change.
Whether it's "RIGHT" or not to edit content to suit community standards is secondary to the well being of the community (obviously) . .. choosing the lesser evil (allowing peeps to get pissed over XYZ content - vs. - allowing peeps to get pissed over perceived limitations to their "free expression") is always going to be a difficult choice to make. But someone's going to make it... and I think already has.
Too bad. The Nazis and what they stood for existed, and the potential for it still exists today. It is interesting how some people think hiding something repugnant makes it go away. History revised by popular demand.
Wow! Morals, philosophy and ethics by popular demand. At least there wasn't a lynch mob, right? Sorry Sean, you know I've got your back anytime, but you were wrong on this one. It is your site, though.
I am sorry that this photo was deleted. I am Jewish and had mixed feelings about it, but I cannot condone censorship unless some real harm was being done. Although they are certainly not things I would collect, my hope is that Greg was not trying to glorify Nazi Germany, but was interested in the artifacts as historical objects. Now we may never know. I was interested to see the Leica camera however. Many people are not aware of the role the Leitz family played in helping Jews leave Germany, often at great risk to themselves. See: http://nemeng.com/leica/005eb.shtml
Hiding, ignoring, refusing to apply rigor to the why and wherefore of something. Revisionism and political correctness at work. Oh well. We are good at stuffing atrocities and genocide under the carpet...
I didn't see the picture in question, but I do question the picture:
What is a "nazi picture"?
In my "accumulation" are among others: A: A glass negative showing the shop window of a jewish merchant in Berlin immediately before "Kristallnacht". The window is cvered with David's stars and swastikas. Would that be a "nazi picture"?
B: I have several lenses made in Germany in the time from 1940 to 1945. Are those "Nazi lenses", and B(2): Would that make pictures shot with on of them "nazi pictures"? What If I use one of those lenses to shoot a picture of another one?
C: I also happen to have an old Mauser bayonet. It has accumulated several stamps and seals, including a Preussian double-eagle, both sides of the Spanish civil war, a "Reichsadler", and a UK War ministry arrow - all this before it ended up in the hands of the Norwegian resistance. Should I post a picture of it?
I did not vote in this poll.....
The question to display Nazi items of course is a personal choice, I have very strong feelings about the Nazi's, I had two uncles who spent 18 months and 24 months respectably as their "Guests" I watch the many shows on TV that try to explain why the world had to endure the hatred of the Nazi's, I spent a number of years transcribing one of my uncles thoughts on this subject..I did not get to see the image(s) but I think deleting might be the wrong approach to take, on the other hand, I believe the galleries are for display of the members works, and unless you were there taking the images, I don't know that posting the images taken by others during this bad time in the history of the world..is your right, or duty...
Just my .02
The image was a recent still life made of Nazi artifacts. It was not made during the Nazi regime.
If that is the case, where a member made his/her own images of the Nazi artifacts then I believe that deletion was the wrong approach to take.
Well we decided a while back to use the report functions as a way to give members of the site some degree of content control. What good is it to have a report button that does not work? The option is there as a guage, it then requires me or the mods to mull over the reports and make a final decision. I woke up this am to a full inbox regarding the image. It is definitely a damned if you do damned if you don't call to make.
It´s a very sensitive question for us (not all, obviously) Europeans, we don`t need this crap once again, the world doesn`t need this stupid "ideology".
It´s a big problem in Europe and becoming bigger, I do hope people look at the past and learn.
PS- I`m not saying Greg`s post has something to do with this, I`m just supporting my concerns over the subject in discussion.
I do appreciate your position. A very tight spot. While I don't agree in this specific case, I support you, and your responsibilty to take what you think is the right action.
To address Ole's comment - I think actually historic images would be less offensive in many ways, even if they had more explicit content, because it is an historic artifact showing events as they unfolded. Depicting nazi regalia in a glorified context ( a still-life, with no negative context included ) makes it appear that the photographer was either unaware of the power of the symbolism, or agreed with it. I don't think that removing the image itself was a good thing. It should have been up to the original poster to decide to keep it or remove it, and he should have had the chance to explain his decision. If his motives were benign, let the image stay. If he was a Nazi sympathizer, then perhaps it would be appropriate for the will of the community to ask him to depart altogether and not participate again, if the community as a whole does not wish to associate with Nazis.
To me the question is more specific and relates to whether the administrator should have the right to remove an image with a potentially harmful content, such as the one posted, which was reminescent of Nazi propaganda (go read European newspapers; this kind of stuff is going on today). In this case, I maintain, yes, absolutely. Obviously, nobody knew the intention of the person who posted it, but it clearly was a potentially harmful image. As I said in one of my comments on the picture, there are ample opportunities for those who wish to be educated, including books, videos, museums, old concentration camps (you know where), etc., all of which are much more adequate than an image of questionable purpose. Regards, Markus
I have, like about 30 others I presume, an 'original' (postcard) of the image. I'll be displaying it in my collection.
Personally I would not want a copy of that image in an exchange either, but even though I do not agree with the Nazis ( I personally detest everything they stood for, my family fought against them in the war and many of them died as well. We are from Europe originally, and the stories I heard growing up are nothing short of appalling) but by removing the image from the site, how are we any different from them? Censorship is censorship no matter how you label it. As terrible as what the Nazis did, it happened and that image is clearly a reminder of the past. People need to know and be aware about tragedy so it will never happen again. I think removing the image is wrong.
There are certain types of images myself and other do not like, but it is the right of the people to post, to allow other to see how they see things and to express their inner-self through the images they create. There are images that the original people who companied I do not like, so should we ban those images also because say 5 others and myself don’t like them?
Do you watch the history channel? They show shows about Hitler and Nazism all the time, should those be banned as well? Schoolbooks that talk about Hitler and what he did to the Jews, should those books be banned and burned as well? What about Sally Mann, should we ban and burn her images because some do not like them? Or what about the work of Misha Gordin, should that work be banned and burned because some of the images are to graphic and remind of us certain things?
While we are at it, lets take it one step further, to the extreme, lets also ban any religion except Christianity, after all only America exists in the world and every other country has no bearing and since America was a Christian nation in the first place only that religion should be allowed and through the rest of the world as well, who cares about others beliefs as only OURS are important and no one else’s.
Let go one step further again; Look at Iraq for example? What right did we ( America ) have to go into a country to force a people to our way a life? Some will scream yes we did because Sadam was killing people? In whose eyes? In America we are murdering babies on a daily basis (ABORTION) and that is acceptable? so because I do not agree with abortion should it be banned? What about Korea with the nuclear testing issue? Even though I think they are extremely dangerous (my opinion again) should they be boycotted? But if memory serves me correctly, it was America that has been the only nations in the world to use a nuclear bomb against innocent civilians, not only once but also twice, remember Japan? So should the world ban America because they don’t agree with Americas Foreign Policies?
WAIT A MINUTE; are we once again repeating the past?
And wasn’t the image that was banned a reminder of what not to repeat?
See how dangerous banning and censorship can become? It all starts simple and harmless but the end results are all the same. When you start banning / censoring something because you don’t like it, where does it end? Where can you draw the line? As long as 5 people don’t like it lets keep censoring.
By the looks of it and according to the way some think around here it should be allowed and censoring and banning is totally and completely acceptable as long as they get their way, but as soon as you ban something they like WATCH OUT and watch history repeat itself once again!
Truly a sad day on apug...
PS> For the record I realize more is out there than America, I was just making a point to the extreme. No offense to other countries especially since my family is not from America in the first place.
It's a measure of the distance 'civilization' has come that enslaving, crucifying, or otherwise brutally abusing those who are conquered, or destroying utterly their land and architecture (e.g. Carthage) is a modern anathema. However, to be so liberal as to allow the trappings and artifacts of one of the most morally disgusting regimes in the history of the planet to even continue to exist, is an excess of 'civility' with which I do not concur. To me, every such artifact should be legally required to be melted down and destroyed wherever it is found. Though I did not report the post (and I'm sorry I didn't), I fully support Sean's decision to expunge it from this site. I can only wish the medal, insignia, hat and other items could be so easily expunged from continued existence.