Is this caused by development?

Discussion in 'B&W: Film, Paper, Chemistry' started by CanuckBassist, Mar 20, 2009.

  1. CanuckBassist

    CanuckBassist Member

    Messages:
    11
    Joined:
    Mar 20, 2009
    Location:
    Toronto, Can
    Shooter:
    Medium Format
    I developed my first roll of 120 a few days ago. I noticed a vertical "band" in 4 of the 12 exposures (exposures #4, 6, 9, and 10).

    I can't be sure, but I don't think it's caused by the camera because the shots used different apertures and shutter speeds. On the other hand, I'm not convinced it's caused by the developer either because the exposures would either have this "band" or not have it entirely.

    So could this have been caused by the developing process?

    [​IMG]
     
  2. fschifano

    fschifano Member

    Messages:
    3,216
    Joined:
    May 12, 2003
    Location:
    Valley Strea
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
    Despite the commonly heard "wisdom" about gentle agitation, that advice can be taken too far. This is a classic example of what happens when you don't agitate sufficiently. Medium format film developed in small tanks is more prone to exhibiting these problems than 35 mm stocks. If you're using a SS tank, try to get at least 5 to 7 good snappy inversion in 5 seconds every 1/2 minute. If plastic tanks are your thing and you like to use the agitation stick instead of inversion, go for at least 5 to 7 complete back and forth motions in 5 seconds every 1/2 minute.
     
  3. CanuckBassist

    CanuckBassist Member

    Messages:
    11
    Joined:
    Mar 20, 2009
    Location:
    Toronto, Can
    Shooter:
    Medium Format
    Great, thanks!

    I just find it weird that it appears in specific exposures and not at all in adjacent ones.
     
  4. ntenny

    ntenny Member

    Messages:
    2,283
    Joined:
    Mar 5, 2008
    Location:
    San Diego, C
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
    Why would it be confined to certain frames (and non-contiguous ones at that), though? General uneven development, especially the "more developed at the edges" pattern, would make sense---edge effects could cause the agitation to be more effective near the edges of the film, leaving the middle underdeveloped---but a single asymmetric band that doesn't span frames? To me it looks more likely to be something in-camera, perhaps a very faint light leak that only has a visible effect when the light is from a certain angle.

    What's the camera? Specifically, is the band parallel to the film edge (as it would be with a TLR) or perpendicular (as with most other designs)?

    -NT
     
  5. Fred Aspen

    Fred Aspen Member

    Messages:
    715
    Joined:
    Aug 23, 2006
    Location:
    North-ish-western US
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
    Agree with ntenny. I recently had the exact same problem (looked identical to your anomaly) with a Leica R4S that only fogged when the light was at a particular angle, and only a handful of frames on a roll. Replaced the light seals and seal around the film canister window and problem disappeared.

    -F.
     
  6. CanuckBassist

    CanuckBassist Member

    Messages:
    11
    Joined:
    Mar 20, 2009
    Location:
    Toronto, Can
    Shooter:
    Medium Format
    It's a Kiev 88. The band is parallel to the film edge.

    Looking at the four exposures that are affected, the light (sun) is at very different angles in all four.

    Edit:
    If it's a light leak problem, wouldn't the band be lighter than the rest of the frame?
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 20, 2009
  7. Bob Carnie

    Bob Carnie Subscriber

    Messages:
    5,419
    Joined:
    Apr 18, 2004
    Location:
    Toronto-Onta
    Shooter:
    Med. Format RF
    I absolutely agree with this . These are road ruts that are minus density across nuetral areas that are not agitated or better put, the developer has not reached the film surface evenly and fast enough that produce dark bands in a positive image of the negative.

     
  8. ntenny

    ntenny Member

    Messages:
    2,283
    Joined:
    Mar 5, 2008
    Location:
    San Diego, C
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
    Oh. Um, yeah. Well, obviously it's a *dark* leak problem! :smile:

    I still think it looks weird for an agitation issue, though. My next guess would be that it has something to do with the shutter travel---the Kiev 88 has a horizontal shutter, right?---but I can't easily explain that either. Something slowing down the first curtain briefly at that point?

    -NT
     
  9. CanuckBassist

    CanuckBassist Member

    Messages:
    11
    Joined:
    Mar 20, 2009
    Location:
    Toronto, Can
    Shooter:
    Medium Format
    This roll was developed in HC-110 B for 16 minutes. Would what you're suggesting be possible? Given that the developer was working for so long, any difference in contact between various areas of the film surface would be very small relatively. No?
     
  10. Bob Carnie

    Bob Carnie Subscriber

    Messages:
    5,419
    Joined:
    Apr 18, 2004
    Location:
    Toronto-Onta
    Shooter:
    Med. Format RF
    Hi there

    Its not the length of time that is most critical, It is the first 10-20 seconds in the developer which is extremely important to have an even flow of developer to the whole film.
    Specifically like the image you show which has lots of nuetral tones.
    the dark areas we see are basically dev not getting on these areas fast enough therefore not *setting* equally across the film surface, that when printed create dark mess that you are getting.
    This problem shut down my lab for a period of time until we figured the problem.
    Now with all film we agitate the first 10-30 seconds by hand with a twisting inversion. one hand at top one at bottom as if you were grasping the steering wheel of your car. then turn the canister 180degrees, by holding the container this way it is impossible not to invert and twist the chem onto the film, with a firm tap on the bottom after each inversion to dislodge andy air bubbles.
    hope this makes sense and helps you with your problem.
    Also I do not skimp on chem in the process stage.
    QUOTE=CanuckBassist;771199]This roll was developed in HC-110 B for 16 minutes. Would what you're suggesting be possible? Given that the developer was working for so long, any difference in contact between various areas of the film surface would be very small relatively. No?[/QUOTE]
     
  11. CanuckBassist

    CanuckBassist Member

    Messages:
    11
    Joined:
    Mar 20, 2009
    Location:
    Toronto, Can
    Shooter:
    Medium Format
    Let me make sure I understand what you're describing correctly. You have one hand on the lid and one the bottom. You turn the tank 180 degrees so it's upside down, and then back rightside up, repeating multiple times. I did this exactly for the first 30 seconds. I also tapped the bottom on my table to dislodge air bubbles.

    I also wasn't trying to skimp on chem. I pushed the film to 1600, and 16minutes in B is the only way I found posted, so I figured I'd start from there.
     
  12. Anscojohn

    Anscojohn Subscriber

    Messages:
    2,727
    Joined:
    Dec 31, 2006
    Shooter:
    Medium Format
    *********
    Sacrifice another roll of film. Take junk exposures. Outdoor lighting.

    The frame numbering is suspicious to me: it has something to do with where the film is at a certain time. This COULD be where the frames are in the developing reel and hence be an agitation problem, as Frank suggests. Or not.
    On the other hand, the fact that the problem is intermittent; and runs parallel to the film edges, might indicate some kind of a flare problem caused by the shutter. Do you have the bronzed metal shutter curtains or the dark cloth curtains?
     
  13. CanuckBassist

    CanuckBassist Member

    Messages:
    11
    Joined:
    Mar 20, 2009
    Location:
    Toronto, Can
    Shooter:
    Medium Format
    I have the bronzed metal shutter curtains.

    I plan to sacrifice a roll to experiment. I just don't know when I can get around to it.
     
  14. Sponsored Ad
  15. Bob Carnie

    Bob Carnie Subscriber

    Messages:
    5,419
    Joined:
    Apr 18, 2004
    Location:
    Toronto-Onta
    Shooter:
    Med. Format RF
    If this is how you are doing it , then it stumps me as these look exactly like road ruts I have experienced in the past ..... and that was definately uneven development problem.

     
  16. Anscojohn

    Anscojohn Subscriber

    Messages:
    2,727
    Joined:
    Dec 31, 2006
    Shooter:
    Medium Format
    I forgot to ask: do these areas of different density cross over slightly to the next frame; or so they stop at the frame lines? If the latter, I think we can throw out something that happens in the developing tank.
     
  17. Anscojohn

    Anscojohn Subscriber

    Messages:
    2,727
    Joined:
    Dec 31, 2006
    Shooter:
    Medium Format
    *****
    The cloth curtains would have indicated a retrofit and lead me to discount a shutter flare problem.

    The metal curtains are, I am told, prone to flare problems. That being said, I have the original bronze curtains and have never (touch wood) had a flare problem from the shutter blades.

    And as I stated in my last question, if the "flare" lines stop at the between frame edges, and the areas between frames are clear, we must begin to think it is something happening in the camera; rather than through a leak in the magazine or something in the developing tank.
     
  18. CanuckBassist

    CanuckBassist Member

    Messages:
    11
    Joined:
    Mar 20, 2009
    Location:
    Toronto, Can
    Shooter:
    Medium Format
    They don't cross over to the adjacent frames, which I brought up in the original post. There're only two affected frames that are next to each other, and now that I'm looking at the negatives, the "band" on the two adjacent affected frames don't line up perfectly, they're at a slight angle in each affected frame.

    I was hoping this would be a developing problem because I don't see a pattern in aperture or shutter speed in the affected frames. It's also odd that the "bands" are darker rather than lighter.

    Since the "bands" are not perfectly vertical, can we rule out a shutter curtain problem?
     
  19. Anscojohn

    Anscojohn Subscriber

    Messages:
    2,727
    Joined:
    Dec 31, 2006
    Shooter:
    Medium Format
    ******
    Not necessarily. The shutter is moving the whole time across the frame. But, in any case, it is a real conundrum; and I wish I could come up with something definite for you. The key, it seems to me, is if the density differential is at all to be seen in the clear area specifically above or below one of the affected frames.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 20, 2009
  20. CanuckBassist

    CanuckBassist Member

    Messages:
    11
    Joined:
    Mar 20, 2009
    Location:
    Toronto, Can
    Shooter:
    Medium Format
    The bands are lighter on the negative, darker in the reversed picture.

    At this point, I think I'll just have to wait until I go through an experimental roll to see if it happens again.
     
  21. Anscojohn

    Anscojohn Subscriber

    Messages:
    2,727
    Joined:
    Dec 31, 2006
    Shooter:
    Medium Format
    *****
    Yes. But wait a while--see if the gremlins will get bored through inactivity and go someplace else--like your neighbor's sound system!!! :tongue:
     
  22. trexx

    trexx Member

    Messages:
    299
    Joined:
    Nov 16, 2004
    Location:
    Tucson
    Shooter:
    4x5 Format
    I'd bet on shutter. Looks just like the bands on a widelux when the shutter is sticky.
     
  23. CanuckBassist

    CanuckBassist Member

    Messages:
    11
    Joined:
    Mar 20, 2009
    Location:
    Toronto, Can
    Shooter:
    Medium Format
    Wouldn't that affect every exposure though? And there seems to be no relationship between shutter speed and the effect.
     
  24. Anscojohn

    Anscojohn Subscriber

    Messages:
    2,727
    Joined:
    Dec 31, 2006
    Shooter:
    Medium Format
     
  25. trexx

    trexx Member

    Messages:
    299
    Joined:
    Nov 16, 2004
    Location:
    Tucson
    Shooter:
    4x5 Format
    With a focal plane shutter, particularly when it is faster then sync speed the leading curtain travles at a different speed then the trailing curtain. Or one of the two stutter as it travels. In the expermental roll not the appeture and shutter speed for all frames. If the sutter is to be blamed anything ove the X sync speed is likly to have bands of different exposure.
     
  26. CanuckBassist

    CanuckBassist Member

    Messages:
    11
    Joined:
    Mar 20, 2009
    Location:
    Toronto, Can
    Shooter:
    Medium Format
    The band appears at the exact same place in all 4 of the affected frames. Every single frame of the roll was shot at above the sync speed.

    I'll do the experimental roll tomorrow and see what happens.