Jobo 8x10 Expert drum vs Jobo 2850 for 8x10 negatives.

Discussion in 'B&W: Film, Paper, Chemistry' started by ic-racer, Jul 17, 2009.

  1. ic-racer

    ic-racer Member

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    Kind of a continuation of this thread ( http://www.apug.org/forums/forum37/53797-anyone-using-jobo-1500-series-single-8x10-sheetfilm.html ).

    Here is the deal: A Jobo Expert Drum 3005 cost $500 USD new and will process FIVE sheets of 8x10 negative film.

    The Jobo 2850 drum can be had for $65 or less on e-bay and will process FOUR sheets of 8x10 negative film.

    So, is it worth $435 USD to be able to process that extra sheet of 8x10??

    I have made up my mind, but I'm interested in other's comments on the subject.

    (below is the 2850 for those not familiar with the entire Jobo lineup)

    [​IMG]

    (below is the 3005 expert drum)

    [​IMG]
     
  2. Tom Kershaw

    Tom Kershaw Subscriber

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    Are you getting even development over the entire negative(s) with the 2850 drum?

    Tom.
     
  3. Allen Friday

    Allen Friday Member

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    Apples to oranges. One is new, one is from ebay. How much are 3005s on ebay. I have several 3005s and I have never paid anywhere near $500 for one, albeit it has been several years since I bought one. Be patient and wait for a good deal on a used expert drum.
     
  4. Peter De Smidt

    Peter De Smidt Member

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    I agree. The expert drum produces very even results. I have one and like it. My guess is that the print drum would not, but the only way to know is to try it.
     
  5. Jeremy

    Jeremy Member

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    I have and have used both. I prefer the Expert drum, but the 2850 does produce even negatives. I only paid $200 for my 3005.
     
  6. Nick Zentena

    Nick Zentena Member

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    The point shouldn't be 5 versus 4 sheets. If all you want is the lowest cost drum then buy a handful of 2830 drums.

    The reason for the Expert is some people have problems getting good negs with the print drums. Not to mention Jobo never aimed the print drums at negs.
     
  7. ic-racer

    ic-racer Member

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    With respect to the question of uneven development, the 3000 Expert series Very Large Format film drums (for larger than 8x10) differ from the 2800 drums only in the way the NON-EMULSION side is processed. ( see JQ9502 "3000 Series (Very) Large Format Sheet Film Drums"). In my 2800 drums, the few ridges behind the film don't actually touch the film, and have not been a problem, even with 'in-tank' washing.
     
  8. ic-racer

    ic-racer Member

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    Fair point on the price comparison. At B&H making a 2850 would involve getting the 2870 ($75) plus 2830 ($125) so $200 vs $500 for NEW.

    In terms of USED prices, I have never seen a like-new 3005 on e-bay go for less than $300 in the last 6 months. There are NONE currently listed or available for review in the 'completed auctions' search. (2800 tanks are listed.) So its hard to make a comparison to something that does not exist. I'll gladly pay anyone out there $250 for a like-new 3005 in-box with swab. (Hypothetical, rhetorical, statement, not intended to promote a monetary transaction in this forum :smile: ).

    Just to further the discussion, there is a discontinued Jobo 3063 Expert drum that holds SIX 8x10 films. Two of these recently sold on e-bay for less than $200 each. Anyone have experience with that one?
     
  9. Nick Zentena

    Nick Zentena Member

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    IIRC the 3063 is really a BIG print drum It doesn't use the same system the other experts use for holding film. Doesn't it also handle 20x24 paper?
     
  10. ic-racer

    ic-racer Member

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    I cannot do a direct test between the 2800 and 3005, but I CAN compare the 2820 (two 4x5) with the 3010 Expert drum (10 4x5) for processing 4x5.
     
  11. Jeremy

    Jeremy Member

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    Just a note that the 3005 I purchased for $200 isn't new and didn't come with the swab. It was just the tank from a gentleman going to 4x5 from 8x10, who hadn't used the 3005 in a while and offered a refund if it didn't work correctly.
     
  12. MikeSeb

    MikeSeb Member

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    Which, if either, of these drums would work in a Jobo ATL-1000/1500?
     
  13. Greg Davis

    Greg Davis Member

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    None of the 3000 series tanks will fit that machine. The 2830, which holds two sheets of 8x10, will fit, I believe. But that is the largest tank that will fit.
     
  14. ic-racer

    ic-racer Member

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    UPDATE:

    I got a second 2850 drum ($35 new in box), so I can load a total of eight sheets of 8x10 and process them right after each other (without having to dry the drum).

    Tri-x film seems to clear completely on the back when washed in the drum.
    I also just processed 8 rolls of Tmax 400 8x10 and it also gets the back of the film washed in the drum.

    For in-drum wash I'm using: Fix, water one min, Permawash one min, water one min, water 2 min, water 3 min.

    Development is very even with Jobo CPP using 470ml of T-max developer for 4 sheets. I then use only 260ml for the other solutions.
     
  15. Oren Grad

    Oren Grad Subscriber

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    Are you developing for silver or for alt process printing? Some folks who work in alt processes have found that negatives from Jobo print drums that look fine to the naked eye have uneven UV transmission.

    I use a 3062 and a 3063 for ULF negatives, but intended for silver printing only. HP5 Plus comes out OK, but in the past I had some difficulty clearing the base with J&C/Fortepan 400 - had to add a tray step with hypo clear followed by another wash after removing the negatives from the drum.

    I use the 3004/3005/3006 for smaller sheet film negatives.
     
  16. largeformat pat

    largeformat pat Member

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    I use a 3062 and a 3063 for ULF negatives, but intended for silver printing only. HP5 Plus comes out OK, but in the past I had some difficulty clearing the base with J&C/Fortepan 400 - had to add a tray step with hypo clear followed by another wash after removing the negatives from the drum.
    I would agree. The clearing of the base can be an issue with print drums. There are more ridges in the print drum than the film drum.
    Pat
     
  17. ic-racer

    ic-racer Member

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    I'm doing silver enlarging. I did have intermittent FP4 sticking to the drum. After my wash, I dip each 8x10 sheet into a water bath (white tray) and look for any discoloration of the water (indicating places on the back where there is still some purple/blue) If I see any discoloration of the water, I keep the negative in the water until it clears. With the first 8 T-max, the water was clear with each sheet.
     
  18. ic-racer

    ic-racer Member

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    Follow up on this thread. I did wind up getting a new 3005 through Jobo Germany (yes still available new, and less than ebay). It is quite a bit bigger and heavier for just a single extra negative. I have used it a few times and it works well.
     
  19. eclarke

    eclarke Member

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    I sold my expert drum and far prefer a single sheet in the paper drum for 8x10 and 11x14. For even development I just drop the sheet in loose, not fastening it in the grooves which allow 2 sheets, and processing on the P setting for agitation. I have done about 75 11x14 sheets this way in 2011 with no failures. I have six of the drums and cycle them through on a production line basis so can do six sheets in a session...Evan Clarke
     
  20. Mark Crabtree

    Mark Crabtree Member

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    I think I may have a couple of those extension tubes for the standard paper drums back in the archives somewhere. If anybody is still wanting those I'd be happy to dig around and see if they are still there.

    I actually use the smaller diameter film drums for 8x10 sheet film. One sheet per tube, floating in a water bath, with a cork in the end. Sort of BTZS style. The Expert drums look great but I've never used one. I was surprised to hear they are still available; I thought Jobo was completely gone.
     
  21. ic-racer

    ic-racer Member

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    In fact I started getting marks on the back of HP5 that were very annoying. After working with this for about 3 years this is my evaluation and solution:



    HOW IT HAPPENS:
    During fixation, the fixer cannot reach the entire back surface of the negative. If the print is then washed, a permanent mark will form. Re-fixing won't alleviate the problem.


    THE SOLUTION:
    After fixing in the drum, the negatives need to be removed from the drum and placed in the fixer again so the back of the film can be entirely covered with fixer. This only takes a minute or so and can be done one-at-a time before placing the negatives in a washer.
    This has to happen before any HCA, Hypo Clear or water touches the film

    Alternative is to do the entire fixation in a tray but that would best be done in the dark.

    MY UNINTENDED CONSEQUENCES:

    1) Wash water temperature. I used my print washer for the negatives, but it is hooked to cold water. I needed to re-route my 24C water to the print washer.
    2) Since the negatives need to be removed from the 2800 drum before any water is placed in drum, the Jobo tank and lift are still laden with fixer. The tank needs to be re-assembled with no film and placed back on the Jobo for the 1 liter rinse.



    References:
    Film: ILFORD HP5 8x10
    Developer: Kodak T-Max
    Fixer: Ammonia Thiosulfate
    Temp: 24C
    Tank: Jobo 2800 series
    Processor: CPP2 & Lift
     
  22. Vaughn

    Vaughn Subscriber

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    I found this to be a problem with 8x10 in a 3005. I solved it by 1) longer pre-wash -- about 5 minutes, and 2) non-hardening fix (Kodak Rapid Fix w/o the hardener.

    My working theory: The hardener was partially hardening the anti-halation layer on the back of the film before it could be removed (since it is difficult for the solutions to get to the back.)

    It worked for me after stuggling with the problem for awhile.
     
  23. Sirius Glass

    Sirius Glass Subscriber

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    I do not have experience with negatives larger than 4"x5" so I can only discuss the Jobo 3010 Expert Drum. I found the drum for $300 and the expense was a good investment. No more tanks that have chemicals slosh out. No more scratched negatives nor negatives that stuck together from tray processing errors. The money was well spent and the investment continues to pay off.