Jobo CPE-2 motor overhaul

Discussion in 'Darkroom Equipment' started by hoffy, May 29, 2011.

  1. hoffy

    hoffy Member

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    Howdy,

    Only after 3 darkroom sessions since I bought it (used, of course), my Jobo CPE-2's motor cried enough. It was always going to be a risk, as when I bought the processor it wasn't running, but this was due to a failed power supply. I had been running it using a 19V 30amp lab supply, so I am pretty sure I had not caused it to fry (after some research, I had found the the jobo CPE-2 supply was 18 volts Max)! What happened is it started to progressively get noisier and then stopped turning.

    Anyhow, there was nothing to be lost, so I decided to pull it apart to see why and IF I could fix it.

    Below is the exploded view. As you can see, there is plenty of grease in the gearbox
    [​IMG]
    Jobo CPE-2 Motor, Exploded view by hoffy37

    Looking at the bell end, you can see quite a bit of black around the brushes, suggesting a lot of arcing
    [​IMG]
    Jobo CPE-2 Motor, Bell End by hoffy37

    The can and magnets all look fine, but the can end of the shaft and the bush did seem quite dry
    [​IMG]
    Jobo CPE-2 Motor, Can End by hoffy37

    The armature shows a lot of carbon buildup, again suggesting bad contact
    [​IMG]
    Jobo CPE-2 Motor, Armature by hoffy37

    And finally, the culprit. My suspicions is that this brush caused the motor to fail finally.
    [​IMG]
    Jobo CPE-2 Motor, Burnt Brush by hoffy37

    It looks like the plastic has melted, which has deformed the slot. The brush had been rocking backwards and forwards and would not move freely in the slot. I am surmising that this has caused bad contact, arcing and heat buildup and finally failure.

    I tried to clean the arm and the brushes as good as I could and re-assembled the motor. It seemed to spin fine in one direction, but was really sluggish in the opposite. To me, this suggests that the rocking brush is probably the cause for this bad performance. I had thought about working out a way to sleeve the brush slot, but haven't come up with a good solution yet.

    But, I have also been looking for replacements. I was wondering whether something like this would be OK (yes, I would be up for some cutting and shutting to get things to fit):
    http://www.crestmi.com.au/planetaryGearMotor.php
    I am afraid that this may be as gutless as the original Jobo motor, as it only gives 0.06Nm at 12V, but it would easily fit(with a bit of fettling)

    The other option from this website is a 10W 0.83Nm motor, that will spin at 83rpm @ 12V. This one is a bit more of a tighter squeeze, which will probably mean moving some of the components to get it to fit, but it should be possible
    http://www.crestmi.com.au/DC_precision_gearmotors.php#Z2D

    The other thing to note is these motors have 8mm shafts, so I would need to make an adapter.

    I hope this at least shows others what the internals look like and hopefully give someone some inspiration (or give me some advice on how to fix this one!)

    Cheers
     
    Last edited by a moderator: May 29, 2011
  2. rcam72

    rcam72 Member

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    Nice post Hoffy. I have an older CPP-2 and occasionally think about what I'll do when it finally craps out. Have you contacted the JoboMan. He seems to be the go to guy for JOBO questions and parts. Maybe he'd be able to point you in the right direction regarding a suitable replacement motor.

    http://www.darkroomdoctor.com/Home_Page.php

    ZoneIII has a thread, http://www.apug.org/forums/forum43/48913-reflections-new-jobo-cpa-2-owner.html, and he mentions a second possible source for parts/information but I keep getting a DNS error so I'm not sure if the link is good or not.

    Thanks for the pictures and good luck with the repairs.

    -Raul
     
  3. RalphLambrecht

    RalphLambrecht Subscriber

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    Hoffy

    These are the contact details for the former Jobo Plant Manager(?). He is now retired and makes a living repairing and servicing Jobo's equipment. I haven't dealt with him yet, but he might be able to help you.

    Fotolaborservice
    Klaus Dieter Seynsche
    Feldstraße 41
    51702 Bergneustadt
    Tel: 02261 – 41114
    www.fotolaborservice.de
    info@fotolaborservice. de
     
  4. hoffy

    hoffy Member

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    Thanks rcam and Ralph. I have sent some emails. I'll see what they say and report back.

    Cheers
     
  5. Paul Green

    Paul Green Member

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    Klaus probably won’t be able to help you sadly; I contacted him recently to ask about a motor for my cpe2 since it died. He explained that the only option was to buy a motor for the cpe2+ which needs modding to fit the processor case, he sells them for around 100 Euros.
     
  6. RalphLambrecht

    RalphLambrecht Subscriber

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    Actually, that may be a good thing, because the CPE-2 motor was just too weak. I bought a used CPE-2 Plus after my CPE-2 died and I'm much happier with it. It cost me less than 100 Euros by the way, but I wouldn't mind to fit a new motor into the old CPE-2, just in case.
     
  7. Nicholas Lindan

    Nicholas Lindan Advertiser Advertiser

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    You should be able to buy replacement brushes. Jobo didn't make the motor - if you can find out who did then you may be able to find brush kits.
     
  8. John Koehrer

    John Koehrer Subscriber

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    Haven 't there been several threads regarding windshield wiper motor as a replacement? Relying on a somewhat dubious memory function I believe they were BMW/Bosch 12V.
    Junkyard as a source.
     
  9. RalphLambrecht

    RalphLambrecht Subscriber

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    What s so special about windshield-wiper motors?
     
  10. Greg Davis

    Greg Davis Member

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    That is for the larger CPA & CPP machines. The CPE seems to be using a much smaller and weaker motor/gear assembly.
     
  11. ic-racer

    ic-racer Member

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    I'd take the brushes out, clean the slots very well, Shim them if needed (JB Weld or something) so the brushes move smoothly in and out only. How much brush is left? If you have plenty left, I'd be patient and do some bench running to re-seat the brushes on the arm.
     
  12. hoffy

    hoffy Member

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    Just a quick update. I haven't received an email back from the 'Joboman', but I did email an industrial supplier in Germany.

    They said that an alternative OEM motor would be a SWF 402.932 - http://smolka-berlin.com/onlineshop...932_Motor_Stirnrad_Getriebemotor_24_V_DC/4390

    The thing that has me concerned is that it is rated with an idle speed of 50 RPM. I was always under the impression that the Jobo CPE-2 ran at around 70-80 RPM. Can anyone please confirm this for me if at all possible?



    I have also been able to source a sort of replacement locally, but will require some work to get fit (including a coupling, or a new collet for the magnet chuck). This unit is rated at 107RPM @ 24 V, which should reduce down nicely if I use a 20V power supply (which I am doing at the moment).
     
  13. Diapositivo

    Diapositivo Subscriber

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    This link
    http://www.jobo.com/jobo_service_an...ctions/instructions_manual_cpa-2_cpp-2_03.htm
    contains information about rotation speed of processors CPA-2 and CPP-2. I don't know if that applies to CPE-2.

    The normally recommended speed is 75 rpm. That's, in my Jobo, slightly "faster" than the P position, I develop my films placing speed control half a notch beyond P as I measured this to give 75 rpm. One might think that P stands for "Paper" and F stands for "film" but apparently that is not.
     
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  15. Lee L

    Lee L Member

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    The P and F did stand for 'paper' and 'film' respectively at one point, until Jobo decided later that they weren't the best recommendations. From the Jobo Quarterly of 1999, 4th Quarter:

    http://www.jobo.com/jobo_service_analog/jq/jq9904.htm#A3994

    and (the table formatting will fail here):

    Lee
     
  16. Mick Fagan

    Mick Fagan Subscriber

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    Hoffy, I believe that the CPE2+ runs at 75 rpm, whilst the earlier CPE2, which I have, runs at two speeds, 25 rpm and 65 rpm.

    I have been developing without any problems 135 film at the 25 rpm speed for at least the last 3,000 rolls of film, including 4 rolls last Sunday afternoon after a morning shoot.

    I also develop at 25 rpm 4x5" and 120 roll film, have done for years.

    This includes B&W neg, B&W reversal, E6 and C41, in all formats.

    I only use the 65 rpm speed when doing the wash, which is 5 minutes.

    I believe the two speed of the earlier CPE2 was to ensure that film developed in the 1500 series of smaller tanks, rotated at the same exterior speed as the larger 2800 paper tanks.

    My personal experience with my machine was that it was working too hard at the higher speed, so I just put onto the lower speed, been using it ever since.

    It's also done EP2 colour neg paper and the later RA4 colour neg paper, until I purchased a Durst Printo in late 1990.

    I have a spare CPE2 which was given to me, one day if it's needed I'll migrate the lift mechanism, if not I'll just keep on using it.

    Mick.
     
  17. RalphLambrecht

    RalphLambrecht Subscriber

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    The higher speed (75 rpm) was recommended by Jobo for film development. That said, I doubt that you would see much difference with 50 rpm. I would not hesitate to use it.
     
  18. Lee L

    Lee L Member

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    Excerpt from two posts earlier, written by Ken Owen in Jobo Quarterly, 4th Quarter 1999:

    Validates Ralph's doubts, straight from Jobo.

    Lee
     
  19. RalphLambrecht

    RalphLambrecht Subscriber

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    Thanks Lee, I've never read that.

    Hoffy needs to increase development time by 1.14% to make up for it. :D

    Seriously, I have never measured it, but I'm sure there will also be a difference in rpms between a small tank (light load) and a fully-loaded, large tank as well. I have never heard a bout a concern in this regard.

    Hoffy
    Just make sure you get the strongest motor possible, still fitting your package and electrical specifications. The CPE-2 motor was underpowered as far as I'm concerned.
     
  20. hoffy

    hoffy Member

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    Thanks for the input peoples. From what I have read, the old CPE-2 motor was rated at around 0.5 Nm torque, at the highest speed. The replacements I am looking at are rated at 0.7Nm at the highest speed. I can also source one that is rated at 1.2Nm, but is a bit more expensive and a bit slower spinning.
     
  21. Lee L

    Lee L Member

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    That's the standard difference between constant agitation and even more constant agitation. :blink:

    When I got my CPE-2 in Köln in the fall of 1982, Jobo was recommending the 25 RPM speed for film. I did have very poor results with a CPE-2 and the 2509 (non-N) reels and 2501 reels with several developer/film combinations. Highly uneven development and surge patterns on 4x5, and strong surge patterns from the radial braces on the 2501 reels. I found out much later that they changed recommendations to a 5 minute pre-soak and the higher 65 RPM speed for film processing. A quick test about 8-10 years ago showed that those recommendations greatly improved the results. But I don't use it any more because it's much faster to process in a hand tank than to set up the Jobo, and I use varied agitation frequency as a process control. I originally bought it because I was forced to work in an unheated 13°C basement for a number of months.

    Lee
     
  22. hoffy

    hoffy Member

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    Another quick updates. Joboman doesn't have any motors available at the moment.....looks like I am going to go for some form of replacement and make it fit. The little motor I have sourced locally is close, but not quite. As long as I can get the shaft in the right spot, I should be able to cut and shut to get it in. If it is a success, I'll post back and show exactly how it was done, in case others want to give it a try.

    Cheers
     
  23. raoul

    raoul Member

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    Once this is all sorted and working, can I suggest writing an article or a web page for this? Plenty of people will be keen to keep these things going for as long as possible.

    I'm fearing the day my CPE-2+ gives up the ghost!
     
  24. Mick Fagan

    Mick Fagan Subscriber

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    Lee, that is quite interesting what you say about your experience in Köln with your CPE2.

    I have been using the slower 25rpm speed for film since I bought my CPE2.

    The hardest film to develop correctly is C41, mainly due to it’s very short developing time of 3’15”. Many processing faults will and can occur, with that very short developing time.

    I had access to Kodak C41 control strips and the use of the densitometer at the industrial photo lab where I worked, the control strips were taken out of the freezer; within 1 hour they were in my Jobo.

    Because I was doing one-shot C41, I actually had more consistent and generally better control strips than the lab dip and dunk bath. Which annoyed the ding out of the boffins running the baths, E6, C41, B&W, EP2 and R3 (Kodak’s reversal paper process).

    I’ve never ever seen a commercial dip and dunk or roller transport film processor, B&W or colour process, that pre-soaked film. I have never pre-soaked any of my films on my Jobo.

    I have processed thousands of C41, E6 and B&W (including reversal) 135 rolls and about a thousand sheets of Kodak Color Print 4x5” film, which had to be spot on as I was making a 4x5” transparency for four colour reproduction. Kodak Color Print film was a C41 process, processing had to be equal too, or if possible, better than E6, mainly due to the short 3’15” processing time.

    I have the original 2509 reels without the later modifications and 1501 reels. I only do four 4x5” sheets to a reel though, my tests showed six sheets to a reel caused problems. Which is about the only processing fault, other than operator error, I’ve ever had with my CPE2.

    Mick.
     
  25. Lee L

    Lee L Member

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    Mick,

    My times were on the long side, using Rodinal and HC-110 at higher dilutions with a variety of films, but mostly Panatomic-X, Verichrome Pan, some Tri-X 135, and 4x5 Plus-X and Tri-X. The surge marks were consistent from batch to batch. The 2501 reels are 'open', with notched radial supports and no solid spiral elements. They have to be loaded on a special loader that provides a full spiral to keep the film on track. But after the reel is removed from the loader, there are just the notched radial spokes supporting the film. Those created the flow pattern that left uneven development surge marks. The 2509 also had a consistently placed flow pattern at about the place where the 2509 retainer clips should break it up. I haven't processed color film with Jobo equipment.

    After I moved into an apartment in Bonn where I could use a large heated bathroom for processing and printing, I didn't need the Jobo and quit trying to solve the problems, or throw more money into the equipment. I just reverted to my stainless steel reels and tanks.

    My more recent test with good results at the higher 65rpm speed and a pre-soak was with Rodinal 1:100 (same as in '82) but with Pan-F substituted for the discontinued Panatomic-X. I've never owned or tried the 1500 series tanks and reels, nor the 2502 reels, which have the full spiral rails. Shortly after I bought my setup, the newer reels came out, and the Expert series drums, which required that I replace the entire processor. I never spent the money on those after returning to the US in '83. Jobo USA was, however, very helpful in selling me the parts to convert to US voltage and frequency; a transformer, heating element, and fuse, which I installed myself. I had excellent results with Ektacolor and Cibachrome printing in the Jobo.

    The Jobo Quarterly, 1994-1999, has a lot of info on the changes in recommendations over time. Apparently it was a Jobo USA publication sent to registered US purchasers, but since I bought in Germany, I was unaware of it. And it only started up 12 years after I had my problems, and when I was full-time care for a toddler and an infant. All Jobo Quarterly issues are currently (2011/6/1) online at: http://www.jobo.com/jobo_service_analog/jq/ but they have disappeared for periods of time during transitions at Jobo. It's well worth reading.

    If I were doing larger batches of film and had a permanent position to leave the Jobo up and ready, I might have more interest in using it. I'm currently working on some ideas for rotating any standard size stainless steel tank standing on end on a driven 'lazy susan' type setup, with adjustable intermittent agitation using a microcontroller and no tempering bath. I just have to steal the bearings off my son's skateboard when he's not looking. :smile: I now prefer a Summitek Cradle for sheet film tray development.

    I know that many others have used the CPE-2 with no issues, and perhaps I could have worked out my problems over time. But I was only in Germany for a year, and I preferred to spend my time photographing and printing rather than working out a set of problems that resulted from using equipment that I no longer had to use. It's also apparent from reading the Jobo Quarterly that I wasn't the only one having problems with uneven development. And there's the fact that all the reels I was using were shortly replaced with redesigned models (which I was unaware of at the time), and the recommended rotational speed for film development was changed.

    Lee
     
  26. Mick Fagan

    Mick Fagan Subscriber

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    Lee, I agree with you regarding the earlier reels having no spiral parts, I have used them a very little amount and didn’t like them. But I don’t remember any processing problems with 135 film.

    Regarding the 2509 reels, I believe I have replicated what you call a “flow pattern” when using 4x5” film and six sheets, developing only four sheets at a time, eliminates that entirely.

    One day I’ll acquire a newer 2059N reel with the addition that allows good flow, I’ll test again and maybe then, do 6 sheets at a time.

    I assume yours doesn’t have a lift; the lift is a marvellous addition.

    I have nearly always used ID11 or D76 at 1+1 dilution and nearly always Ilford 125 and 400 ASA films in their various guises over the years, until I discovered Neopan 400. But I am still in love with FP4+ in sheet film.

    In those days we really were working in the dark, regarding developmental changes to most equipment. One either heard about something on the grapevine when you met someone in a camera shop, read about it in a magazine, or received information from shop staff. I first heard about Jobo from a photographer when he overheard someone complaining to shop staff about a leaking drum when turned upside down. The fact that it was a system, like most camera bodies, was a real bonus to me.

    Without using either a playpen or a leash to keep a toddler out of trouble, I feel you would have been developing in the dead of the night; the things we do!

    Mick.