JOBO Processor care package... Now what?

Discussion in 'Darkroom Equipment' started by StoneNYC, Nov 24, 2013.

  1. StoneNYC

    StoneNYC Inactive

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    So, a very talented and pretty famous photographer and author and member here on APUG generously gifted me for a VERY small price, this baby....

    ImageUploadedByTapatalk1385281470.534902.jpg

    So now what?

    So many questions...

    1. Let's start with the obvious, is there a certain water level that I'm expected to have with this thing? I don't see any markings that indicate how high it should be.

    2. The smaller tank doesn't seem to fit on the rollers that are below inside of the tank here, does this mean that it's safe to float on the water without the rollers or will that put too much strain on the motor?

    3. There are many size tanks and reels, and a little confused, however I do understand that this is certainly enough tank real combo to do most everything except for 4x5. Though as I understand it the larger tank can take a 4 x 5 real but I'm not sure which one/ones? Is it the 2509? And why is there an N at the end of some and not others, does they mean something?

    4. There is also a 4x5 "expert" drum that everyone tells me is the one that I'm supposed to have because it's better somehow? But the prices seem really really high for that, so I'm unsure about that or if it's the right thing at all, or if the 2509 reals are sufficient, I do plan to develop some of the infrared film that tends to be very thin.

    5. How the heck do you load these things? The Paterson reels that I have are so simple, they aren't actually Patterson there's some other sub company called Rokunar, they have a nice tongue that comes out to help guide the film, as well as the autoloading ball bearings. The Patterson reels don't seem to even have ball bearings, and I'm not sure how I'm supposed to feed the film without touching it all the time getting fingerprints all over it. I have two tanks apparently a Unintank 1500 seriee and a multitank 2500 series.

    6. There's indicators on the outside of the tanks telling me that certain tanks take certain milliliters of developer, but sometimes there are two dev amounts listed, but it's unclear what the numbers correspond to when there are two numbers available. Like it lists when you can use one or two 120 rolls, also I read somewhere that you can use to 120 rolls in the same real, but I'm not sure if I understand how you're supposed to load them in it doesn't really make any sense.

    7. There is some kind of 4x5 loading piece for the reels as well, but I'm really sure what that's about either, one did not come with the kit, what I mean is that it looks that way online but I don't know what it is exactly.

    8. There's a one button and a two button, and that's really all there are besides the temperature indicator, but I'm not really sure what the one button or the two button really does. It has a European power supply so I have to go out to RadioShack and get a transistor or whatever you call it to convert it to regular American power, so I haven't been able to actually test it out yet at all.

    I'm sure as soon as possible to this I'm going to have more questions that come to mind.

    Either way now that I actually see one in person, I understand what it really is, I was very resistant to get a processor because of the price, obviously thankfully the price for this one was not too high at all and I really got a bargain, however now that it's in my hands I completely understand the value of it, I also understand that is not as bagel nor as heavy as I would have thought.

    At least I'll be able to start developing all of my color film, I have so much of it piled up.
     
  2. StoneNYC

    StoneNYC Inactive

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    9. What do the numbers on the multi tanks mean, I can't quite tell, they don't really explain very easily what the number system means, for example the 4 x 5 developing real is just called a 2509n I think or 2509 (non N) and is there a difference, I don't understand why it just couldn't say 4x5 reel... Unless I'm wrong which I often a.m., through my research I've only found this one real, it's not like you would get confused if they just called it the JOBO 45 reel. So am I looking at the right one?

    10. Where's a good place to get this stuff used, if I buy a real it will actually almost cost me as much as the darn processor. If I end up getting the supersystem version, that everybody says is the only way to go, then it's like $500 which seems a little crazy, is there a place to get them cheap?
     
  3. Truzi

    Truzi Subscriber

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    Nice! You can use that to develop film AND paper...

    Let me be the first on this thread to point out you now have no excuse to not make optical prints :smile:
     
  4. Chris Lange

    Chris Lange Member

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    did he make you promise to only use one film for a year as part of the discount?

    jokes aside...

    1. Which processor is it? It looks tiny compared to my CPP2...either way my processor has a rotatable valve that determines the maximum height of the tempering bath, on the right side of the bath trough.

    2. There are different rollers for different size tanks...once again in my CPP2 I have interchangeable rollers for small tanks like the unitank, as well as the 2xxx and 3xxx series expert drums.

    3. the 4x5 tank is only possible to run on a CPE or CPP as far as I know...I might be mistaken though.

    4. Don't bother with the 4x5 drum insert that has separate chambers for the sheets (like a revolver's chambers), it is known not to give optimal development.

    5. You sort of just push the film on...imagine a stainless steel reel, but backwards. It's very easy in practice once you are used to it. Try with a bum roll in the light...it seems like it couldn't possibly be the right thing to do, but you really do just push it on, and ease it along using the indented grooves right ahead of where the film slips in. The reason they don't include those nice wide tongues you're used to is because they are a nightmarish source of static. I have had enough important frames ruined by those wide tongue reels that I refuse to use them anymore. I only use the small tooth Paterson reels in my hand tanks, and of course the jobo reels in my jobo tanks.

    6. 270-300ml of developer for the small tank, no matter what. double that for the big guy. Don't bother doing 2 120's on the same reel, it's a bitch to get both on there (one roll goes on, then you put a spacer behind it, and load the 2nd roll, it's a pain).

    7. as above.

    8. can't help you with the 1/2 button thing...track down a pdf of the manual for your particular processor?
    ...my CPP2 has dials for temp. down to a tenth of a degree, it's possible that this processor does not have such precision...
     
  5. Truzi

    Truzi Subscriber

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    I really can't answer the questions, but I'm sure Google will be of help. I believe Youtube can be useful as well.
    You will have to search for the particular model number of that unit to find what is compatible with it.

    From what I understand (and I can be wrong) the sides of some Jobo reels are stepped-in. So, you feed roll film a couple inches like you would a Patterson style, then grab the edges of the film at the stepped-in sides to continue feeding. This I believe is true for the 2502 reels. The 2501 reels, on the other hand, require a special loader. (Remember this for my paragraph about numbers.)

    The only Jobo items I have are a 2509n and tank for it; I will roll it across a table when I do 4x5. At one point the 2509 started to come with two plastic retainers that snap on the reel. Apparently, the film had a habit of walking out of the reel, so the retainers (stops) were added. However, posts on APUG have suggested many people have not had any problems without the stops. I believe the "n" denotes a revision when the stops were added (though I could be wrong).

    I believe there was another style 4x5 reel that was not perfectly round - a different model, so simply saying 45 would not be sufficient. In general, the numbers have meaning - they are model numbers. For example, there is the 15xx series of tanks and reels, and the 25xx series. A reel from one will not work in a tank for the other,etc. Obviously, the first two digits are the series, and the last two specify the item.
     
  6. mnemosyne

    mnemosyne Member

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    The matrix on the tank gives you the relation between film format, the max. capacity of rolls/sheets for that format and (in case of the 2500 the item number of the proper reel) and also the minimum amount the chemicals that is necessary to completely cover the reels in rotational and inversion mode. The bigger number is for inversion (drum loaded with max. number of reels).
    2509 is the correct reel for 4x5 sheets. IIRC, it is the predecessor of the current 2509n reel, which is an improved design [edit: I just see that Truzi has explained the differences in his post].

    Tank system 2500 instructions:
    http://www.firstcall-photographic.co.uk/pdf/pdf3756.pdf

    The processor itself is an older model and I am actually not sure if it will work correctly at all with the newer drums, someone else will have to clarify that. On the newer processors like CPE2 etc the rollers can be adjusted with small extension parts to compensate for the different drum diameters. In any case, the tank must not float and should be fully supported by the rollers.

    Also go to the Jobo USA site, they have a lot of technical information available.
     
  7. TheFlyingCamera

    TheFlyingCamera Membership Council

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    Apropos of question #4 - This processor you have will not take an Expert drum, so don't even worry about getting one. The Expert drums are much larger in diameter than the 2500 series drums, and they require geared lids to be driven by the motor, not the magnetic bases like yours has.
     
  8. AgX

    AgX Member

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  9. Kevin Caulfield

    Kevin Caulfield Subscriber

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    1. Be grateful.

    2. Read the instructions.

    3. Read the instructions again.

    4. Read the instructions again.
     
  10. bdial

    bdial Subscriber

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    I think what you have is the first version of the CPE processor.
    If the rollers that support the tank are the same as the later CPE, then there are two positions for the rollers, one for the print tanks (apparently what it is set for now), and another for the film tanks. The manuals should cover that. But, for the roll film tank if you're only using the short tank (2 35 reels or 1 120) you don't really need the support rollers.
    As noted, the 2509 reel fits in a print tank, there is a short tank that fits a single 2509 reel, then the longer ones will fit multiples. You can use the 2509 reel and tank off the processor if you like, using inversion agitation also. It takes a lot of chemistry, but helps avoid some uneven processing that can occur with rotary processing with the reel. Using the fast speed helps with that too, assuming that unit has two speeds.

    Fill the water bath so that the lower 1/2 inch or so of the tank is in the water, for B&W probably don't need to have the tank in the water at all, you can just use it to make sure the chems are all the same temp.

    Edit. Just looked at the picture again, it doesn't look like it has a heating element for the water bath? Is there a switch and thermostat for heating?
    Also, there is no provisions for the chem bottles in the water bath, so for B&W, I wouldn't worry about the water bath at all. For color, maintaining the bath might be interesting if there is no heating element.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 24, 2013
  11. KennyMark

    KennyMark Subscriber

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    Hi Stone,
    Most of the responses here are spot on, however there are some issues that need qualifying.

    Since you have so many questions, I'd suggest that you begin by processing a roll of b/w in the 1500 series tank. That experience will answer many of your questions, although it will also generate more.

    The only thing I would clarify for you is that the tank needs to be in the water bath only for tempering, so for b/w, you can do it dry.

    This unit would be a nice companion to a TBE for someone with space considerations like yourself. It truly is rare (in contrast to things on eBay described as "RARE") and well suited to you.

    Let us know how your first experience is!
     
  12. AgX

    AgX Member

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    It has a heating and temperature control.´
    It can be set between 20°C and 44°C .
     
  13. CatLABS

    CatLABS Subscriber

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    I will start by saying that all but one of your questions have been answered numerous times on APUG and LFF, specifically on threads you were personally very active on, so it might make sense to go back and go over them with specific searches for the questions on hand.

    This is a CPE (not 2), a fairly older model, for which as far as i know there is no available documentation.

    You should read the regular CPE2 manual, as it covers most if not all if your questions. The tank needs to have good contact with the water, and level will change from the 1500 tanks (higher level due to smaller tank) and 2500 system tanks (lower level due to bigger tanks). 2-3cm of contact should be enough. This unit does not have a water level dial to set water height.

    Never run a drum on a machine with out good support form rollers. In this case, you need Extension arms for the running rollers in order to support the 1500 system tank. The part number is 07067, they are readily available in stock. The tank will not float without them, and the motor is stronger then the magnets pull, it will detach it self before long.

    Its hard to tell from the single photo what you actually have as far as tanks, but from what i see you have a Multitank 5 and a unitank 1520. The multitank 5 will process all the things it says it will on its label (5X35mm 6X120 3X220 and 12X4X5), using 2502 or 2509 reels, the 1520 will do 2X35 or 2X120 or 1X220 using the 1501 reel you have.
    You will need 2509 reels to process 4X5 and 2502 reels to process roll films with the multitank (you might have some inside the tank) both are readily available in stock.

    Expert drums are great. 2509 reels which you can use with the multitank 5, are also very good, and can easily handle any type of film including the thin IR stuff.

    Expert drum also require a processor with a lift, which cannot be added to yours, and in any case, the CPE processor family is too small for Expert drums, and they can only be used with CPA or CPP processors (and of course larger ATL machines as well).


    Depending on the reels you have (1501 or 2502), you just need to follow the same process you do as when loading your rokounar reels.
    Insert the leader on to the start groove, marked by small triangales that point inwards, same as on paterson reels. Once the lead is in, use the indented secion on either side to help the roll along. Loading 35 is easy, and due to lack of ball bearings at the entry gate, loading 120 is much easier then on paterson reels. As suggested - use a test roll to see how it goes before going into darkness.

    If you read the entire label this should be clear - each column represents the amount of film loaded in the tank, for INVERSION processing, and for ROTATION processing.
    Rotation requires much less chemistry volume then inversion. Those are minimum amounts, and when using BW your minimum should be determined by the required active material per square inch, when that amount is greater then the stated minimum, which mostly refers to color chemistry. If you use "standard" developers, such as D76 ir ID11, you can go with the stated min levels.

    True for all reels (paterson/jobo etc) Loading 2 rolls of 120 on each reel is VERY easy. Load the first one on, and make sure its loaded all the way in. Then start loading the second roll. Once the tape edge of the film is at the entry gate, stop. There is now 8-9cm space between the two rolls on the reel. If you want - Jobo reels have a special separator called the Duo Tab. Its a small red tab that is pulled out before loading the first roll, and pushed back in for the second, to prevent overlapping. Using the method above makes sure of that anyways.

    The 2508 loader base for 2509 reels, is a nice thing to have, but the 2509 reels are very easy to load, even with out the loader. Practice makes perfect. Try once with test sheets in the light and you will see how easy it actually is. If not, get a loader, they usually sell for 80-100$ online. None in stock at the moment.

    one button to turn the machine and heater on, and another to run the motor, its been a while since i saw one of these so an owner of one of them might have a more exact answer on which of the buttons does what, but since there are only two options you can just try and see.

    A Jobo processor is definitely not a bagel, what ever gave you that idea? :smile:

    This CPE (Color Processor Economy) unit does not have tempering space for the chemistry bottles and was originally sold with a separate TBE (Tempering Bath Economy) unit for tempering.
    For Color processing you will either need a TBE or other tempering solution to get chems up to temp and maintain them thorughout the run, or get a different processor.

    tank ending with 1 have an inversion lid. tanks ending with 3 have a cog lid. Tanks starting with 15 are unitank 1500 system tank, tanks starting with 25 are multitank 2500 system tanks.
    The third digit tells you how many rolls of 35mm the tank will hold.

    The 2509 and 2509n are the same reel, N marking NEW model, which came with special retaining panels. The 2509 is called a planfilm reel, or in english a sheet film reel. It is not called a 4X5 reel because it will process 4X5, 9x12 and cut sheets of 6X9.
    As this reel starts with a 25 it is part of the 2500 system, and will only work with 2500 system tanks. You can load up to 2X 2509 reels in your multitank 5 (2551) and with 6 sheets on each reel you can have up to 12 sheets on the tank in one run.

    What is a supersystem?

    The fact you got this nice system for little or no money does not affect the actual value or cost of things. If you were to get a free car, you would be asking for cheap tires just because they would cost more then the car...

    While some things seem crazy expensive, Expert drums were never cheap, and since you will need to use it manually with no processor (as it will not work with the one you have right now), you will be getting a whole new processor for that, so the expense for perfection, might not seem so excessive after all.
     
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  15. StoneNYC

    StoneNYC Inactive

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    Thanks everyone there's so many answers here I can't directly address everyone.

    But I wanted to say thanks for all of the answers, it is indeed the CPE processor.

    It's a shame that I will have to buy or look for a separate waterbath tempering thing, that's one of the reasons that I haven't developed as much of my color film, the water bath having to be so consistent is a pain in the butt.

    I'm very very grateful for this processor, it's a great step towards being a better photographer, and I mean that in that I've held back on a lot of color imagery because of how much backlog I have already, so I think that this will help motivate me to do more color and also because it's an intro to using the processor I will now have experience using a processor and I'm sure at some point be "leveling up". I'm fairly sure that my benefactor understood that, and his plan to get me shooting even more film is working. Hah!

    I feel like Pip!

    I'm getting next info about the 1500 tank, some people say I can just get the water level up to it and others are saying that I can't use it with this processor because I don't have special rollers, so which is it?

    I should've shown you guys the reels, I have a full set of reals for the 2500 series multi tank and also a full set of reals for the 1500 series tank.

    I don't have much complaining to do, the tanks were a bonus gift, so going out and buying a new 2509n reel (or two) isn't so bad I suppose, I just figured it would be beneficial if I could get them at lesser the new prices.

    As far as the loading of the reels goes, I'm still unclear about something, I don't see any indentation except for that the first area of where the real spirals are, one of the plastic pieces sort of indents a little bit when you press on it, is that supposed to be there so that you press down on it on one side as you're spending it so that it pushes the film forward? Acting like a grip on the film? I can't tell if that's intentional or just send plastic, and if it's not intentional I don't want to break the real by bending it too many times.

    For what it's worth, I have never had any static problems with the tongue reels, I really love them they're fantastic, I can load up real in under a minute with no issues no scratching and no frustration or struggle unlike the Patterson reels or the Jobo reels which are a little more finicky to load, but I guess I'll just have to get used to this. I'm fairly certain that for now I'm going to stick to my normal processing for black-and-white because I am very specific about how I develop and technique, since I use Rodinal for most things.

    Okay, now I understand what you're talking about with that little red tab and the 120 reals that can be loaded twice, it just seems a little weird because I never touch the film once I start loading with those other reels that I have, and so the idea of having to push the film around and around to get it deep into the real seems a little out of my normal realm, obviously it's fine, it just seems like it could cause problems for me especially with film that is curly, and not wanting to get finger oil on to the backside of the film farther in then just at the end part.

    Anyway I have some experimenting to do, unfortunately I really won't have time this weekend to do anything with this and it will all have to wait until Thanksgiving weekend. I'm sure I'll have many more questions then.

    Oh also someone mentioned something about the magnet and the motor being stronger than the magnet, the magnet has certainly already fallen out and I'm wondering what kind of glue I should use to get it to stay in there and not fall out with the heat of the water and the moisture? I'm sure there are only certain glues that are ideal?

    Thanks guys!

    Oh and to the first poster who mentioned about having no excuse for paper, I never had an excuse for not developing paper, I had an excuse for not printing the paper, because I don't have a space to be able to set up the enlarger etc. I forget the designation, but it's certainly a very large angled enlarger, which needs a plank of some kind to be bolted down, it's a 4x5 enlarger and then there's the question of having access to water and being able to close off an area that is completely light tight, all of which I have absolutely no room for or that I'm allowed to use in the house and occupying right now. So no printing for me just yet. If I did, I would already be printing and developing my paper in some old Cibichrome tubes that I have from a while back, as well as a uniroller... I just didn't have anything to temper the water bath but now I do obviously.

    While I'm thinking about it, the 2500 tank I have, also does paper? How do I load the paper? Do I need special paper reels for that?

    You guys are awesome!
     
  16. Chris Lange

    Chris Lange Member

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    Paper just goes in the drum, emulsion side facing inward. Easy as pie.

    edit: as to the static issue, it is especially dangerous in dry environments, especially during the winter especially when there is even less moisture in the air. The marks left by tongue reels look like little fish-hooks up the center of a medium format frame. Drove me crazy, thought I had a strange lightleak in my Hasselblad film backs, until I started getting the same marks on 35mm film with only one common factor, the reels. It happens when loading quickly, most often, but I have had it happen even when I intentionally go slow and methodically. My brown and black stained Paterson reels are much better for me. If you haven't had the problem, you're lucky...but if you notice that you have strange marks on your film, sometimes multiple occurrences of the identical mark, on one of the side thirds of a 120 frame, you'll know it isn't necessarily your camera/darkroom, but the reels.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 24, 2013
  17. AgX

    AgX Member

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    You mean for the processing baths?

    Why not put them into the processor before inserting the tank?
     
  18. Chris Lange

    Chris Lange Member

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    I don't think there is room on a CPE for the bottles, unlike the slots on a CPA or CPP...
     
  19. StoneNYC

    StoneNYC Inactive

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    Yeah he's correct, there's no room for them in the actual processor itself, it's not long enough to even fit them at the end, although if I remember correctly, after the initial developer, the other developers are sort of not as important as far as temperature is concerned?
     
  20. AgX

    AgX Member

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    I thought of improvising. And baths not completely submerged.
    I mean, it is a gifted horse...


    In the meaning of "instead of the tank".
     
  21. Chris Lange

    Chris Lange Member

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    Kodak's specifications for C-41 were 37.8 degrees celsius for dev, and then anywhere between 25 and 38 degrees celsius for rinse/bleach/fix/whatever. I still use this framework when I dev c-41 and get great negs, no reticulation or any nonsense like that.
     
  22. StoneNYC

    StoneNYC Inactive

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    Good to know, I guess that's fine for me, I just make sure to do it properly with the developer. It can't be any worse than not having any images at all because I'm not developing them, plus the fact that the c-41 shots aren't as important to me since I prefer E-6 (or have so far, who knows this could change my mind :wink:
     
  23. CatLABS

    CatLABS Subscriber

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    Maybe this will help:
    http://jobo-usa.com/images/manuals/loading_120_220_roll_film.pdf

    I know the illustrations are not that good, but you can still see how this reel works. Once you try it i am sure you will see what the "indents" are. Its not clear from what you wrote what exactly might brake. There is no bending or flexing to be done when loading.

    When loading 2 up 120 rolls on one reel - you do not need to touch the film. You just need to autoload it all the way in, and make sure it is loaded all the way to the end of the spiral before starting to load the second roll.

    I'm getting next info about the 1500 tank, some people say I can just get the water level up to it and others are saying that I can't use it with this processor because I don't have special rollers, so which is it?
    You must do BOTH.


    You did not say where the magnet fell off.
    Often the cement adhearing the magnet to the main drive motor fails over time and any glue/cement would work to put the magnet back in place.

    If you are referring to the magnet on the bottom of the tank - you will just need to put it back in place and tap on the tank gently to lock it in place securely.
    We have posted a video on how to do this.
     
  24. Truzi

    Truzi Subscriber

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    You could always fake it. You can get a container and aquarium heater to temper your chemicals. I am a procrastinator, so haven't done a few things I've been planning, but will finally develop c-41 before the new year.

    I went to a local department store and bought a few aquarium heaters. By pulling off and repositioning the dial that controls the heat, I can set it higher than the "factory preset." I experimented in a bucket by using a good darkroom thermometer, and the heater can achieve the correct temp and keep it there relatively well. Many on APUG have written they do similar.
    A dedicated tempering unit would great, but I'm sure the above suggestion will be fine, especially as you start. As a matter of fact, even if you had all the brand-new high-tech equipment, and did dry-runs, I would still expect mistakes on your first outing. If you don't make mistakes, fine, but always expect them until you get the hang of anything.

    Practice (with water) pouring, draining, and "rotating." Use a timer, and keep testing the temperature as you go along so you know how to compensate for your work-flow.

    That was me...
    Just a friendly little prod relating to another thread; kinda teasing you. I know you want to enlarge, but seriously, do some 4x5 B&W contact prints. It seems you will be getting reels and tanks for 4x5 anyway. If nothing else, it will be a great way to practice with your new machine. You can worry about "perfect" enlargements later.

    Related to procrastinating, I will also finally get back into B&W printing this winter (after my first c-41 developing). I will have to blackout one window and light-seal around two doors of the bathroom to do this - all in a manner that I can undo easily after each session (i.e. - tape and blackout cloth). If I had a 4x5 enlarger, I'd go to the local home-improvement store, get some wood, wheels, and other hardware, and find a way to make a very low rolling base. It would be ugly, it wouldn't be plumb, but it would work.
     
  25. wildbill

    wildbill Member

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    "4. Don't bother with the 4x5 drum insert that has separate chambers for the sheets (like a revolver's chambers), it is known not to give optimal development."

    I Know this doesn't apply to you since you've got the wrong machine but the above bullshit is simply not true.
    I wouldn't trust anything this person says regarding jobo processing.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 24, 2013
  26. CatLABS

    CatLABS Subscriber

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    I am guessing this statement is referring to Expert drums. I can only say that "not correct" is an understatement.
    Expert drums are the industry standard as far as sheet film processing goes, and offer unparalleled results.