Kiev 4a

Discussion in 'Rangefinder Forum' started by BBonte, Feb 26, 2006.

  1. BBonte

    BBonte Member

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    I get some overlap of my negatives with my KIEV. Is it worth to get it overhauled and adjusted. Is this a complex procedure ?
     
  2. Lachlan Young

    Lachlan Young Member

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    I don't know but if you are prepared to try a yourself look at the Kiev Survival Site.

    Hope this helps, and good luck,

    Lachlan
     
  3. medform-norm

    medform-norm Member

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    Hi,
    some questions in order to establish what could be wrong:
    -is the overlap regular, does it overlap the same amount on each neg or not?
    -does the shutter fire every time after you have wound up the film to the next number?
    -when you've taken off the back of the camera, and you put a finger on the film transport 'tandwiel', does the cogwheel move a little bit back and forth (not more than 3 mm) or not? And does the transport cog wheel move synchronous to the film winding knob and if not, does the moving halt at the beginning, the middle or the end of the winding movement?

    We can probably tell you more about the complexity of the operation when we have the answers to these questions. PM us if you'd prefer to continue this in Dutch instead of English.
    Hope this helps,

    norm
     
  4. df cardwell

    df cardwell Subscriber

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    Working on a Kiev / Contax is usually more trouble than folks of our era are used to.

    By all means have a crack at it yourself, but understand you probably will kill it.

    The Kiev can be a very, very good camera. It wouldn't hurt to pay to have it fixed, but there aren't many technicians who really do a good job.

    I'm not usually morose, but this is a case where getting to know the work involved, and who will be doing the work, is important.

    Even more frightening than the phrase, "OH, I've ALWAYS WANTED to work on one of those" is, "Yes, sure. Easy."

    You might take a look - as well - as this Contax site:

    http://www.zeisscamera.com/Contax/Tech2.html

    good luck.
     
  5. eumenius

    eumenius Member

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    Usually some overlapping on Kievs can be related to incorrectly adjusted friction unit in a fork that drives the take-up spool. It can be fixed very easily with no problems - just check it first (try to rotate the right fork with your fingers, it should move but not too easily). In your case this fork can be off its profiled square pin (to which it's fixed with a screw) - check it too, and fix it by placing it correctly. Usually the service of this friction unit solves all problems with overlapping - and the friction is adjusted by placing or removing washers under the fork. Not a difficult job at all, and Kiev can be VERY good.

    Cheers from Moscow, Zhenya
     
  6. df cardwell

    df cardwell Subscriber

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    BRAVO ZHENYA

    Old Contaxes have been my 'hobby cameras' for a long time.
    I picked up a Kiev to take into the kayak, or fishing.

    I was shocked when I saw the results. I expected good results, but not the superb
    pictures I got. Well, even considering the photorapher ! Great cameras.

    don
     
  7. eumenius

    eumenius Member

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    The breakage of taking spool driving fork is the most frequent disease of the Kievs, as I know. The overlapping issue indicates that the tensioning spring inside the fork is too weak, or the screw in it is undone. The assembly of this unit should be as following: a driving shaft with profiled end (comes from the camera, rotates when you cock the shutter), a tight tension spring put on this shaft, a washer (or couple of them) over the spring, a fork itself, a washer over it, a profiled (!!) washer, a screw. The profiled washer should be meshed against the profiled end of the shaft, that's essential to get it all working well. It's not very easy to do because of the spring, but it's still quite feasible without camera's top disassembling. The tension of the spring is a crucial parameter - it should be not too tight nor too loose, and if it's loose the frames overlap. At first, it's better not to disassemble the fork unit, but to try tightening the screw - again, it shouldn't be overtightened, because if it's not meshed with the shaft, it's easy to damage the both. If that doesn't help, and the tension is too low, the unit should be disassembled, cleaned, NOT lubricated, and the spring should be tightened by either placing more washers over the spring, or by a careful pulling (can't recommend it, the spring is very strong). Again, check the correct meshing. When you're done, take a blank spool of any film, remove the lens, set the shutter on B, and draw each frame's outlines through the bayonet opening with the pencil, while the shutter is open. You'll see if the frames are still overlapping, or you're done. That's all not too difficult - I've done it for many many times, believe me :smile:

    Cheers, Zhenya

    PS. Don, I am so glad to hear that you love the pictures you can get with your old Kiev :smile: It's a superb camera, I've got one by myself, with hand-picked set of lenses (35, 50, 80, 135) - it's a real gem.
     
  8. BBonte

    BBonte Member

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    Thank you everybody. Give me some time to check it out. I will come back to you after work this evening.
     
  9. blackmelas

    blackmelas Subscriber

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    With a set of miniature screwdrivers, some tweezers, a soldering gun, a handfull of old 35mm film canisters, some post it notes, a d****** camera, some patience and of course the Kiev survival site mentioned by Lachlan above, you can do a lot of repairs on you Kiev. I love my mine and like Don, I take it wherever I don't want to take my Leica or Contax. It takes wonderful photos.

    Also check out Classic Camera Repair Forum http://www.kyphoto.com/classics/forum/ and do a search "+kiev +spacing".

    Good luck,
    James
     
  10. BBonte

    BBonte Member

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    Overlap is regular and about 0.5mm to 1mm. Only 3 out of 36 frames did not have any overlap. Seems to get worse in time.
    The shutter is firing every time when I cock the shutter.
    The taking spool driving fork is very firm when I hold it with my fingers and moving very synchrously with the knob to cock the shutter.The spool itself is loose in the fork but I suppose that is normal to allow friction.
     
  11. Gerald Koch

    Gerald Koch Member

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    I had Oleg at www.okvintagecamera.com repair my 4a and was very happy with the work and price. Even with postage from US to Russia and back the total price was less than what I would have paid a company in the US to do the work.
     
  12. eumenius

    eumenius Member

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    Hm, maybe the friction unit is not too loose, but it's way too strong thanks to some hardening of lubricant? Please, check the "left" sides of your film perforations (film base up) - don't they look bent a bit up, or maybe in some places between the holes you can notice some scratches or marks? These overlaps might happen due to some over-winding of the film (the amount of winding is always the same, but the film roll grows with each frame, so the role of this friction unit inside the fork is to bypass some winding, and not to make the film jump over the double moving gear's teeth). The fork should not be too firm - in other words, its strength should be enough to HELP winding the film by gears (only to keep it tightened), but it should not allow the film to jump over the teeth of driving gear, never.
     
  13. medform-norm

    medform-norm Member

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    Okay, next question (- in case the perforations of your film are not scratched and Zhenya's suggestion don't help).
    After you have made an exposure (i.e. fired the shutter) you normally wind up the film to the next position. Do you then hear a little click at the beginning of the knob winding movement? If not, the top of the camera must be removed to access the winding mechanism. It might be a cogwheel that needs adjustment. If you are unable to fix this yourself, sending it away is inevitable, but it doesn't necessarily have to be costly.
    HTH, norm
     
  14. BBonte

    BBonte Member

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    I don't understand what Eumenius is telling.
    Norm: I do hear a little click when I turn the knob at about half way the complete turn. Well maybe I will send the camera to OKVintagecameras in Russia. But is there no repairman in Europe ? I thought there was somebody in the UK. Or can I trust my local repairman who is checking my Om Olympus camera now and then and is doing a good job?
     
  15. eumenius

    eumenius Member

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    I was telling about the perforation skipping - would you please check if your film has the transport perforation holes damaged or scratched, especially between the holes? If there are any marks, it can be a sign of too much friction in a taking spool fork.
     
  16. blackmelas

    blackmelas Subscriber

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    http://www.sdash.plus.com/
    I haven't used the services here. I only found it when I was looking for resources to repair my Kiev.
    Good luck,
    James
     
  17. medform-norm

    medform-norm Member

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    Hmm, maybe you could ask mr. Roskam in Leiden from Roskam Optics? He repairs the medium format Kiev models, but maybe he works on the smaller ones as well. His website is: http://www.roskamoptics.nl/ - give him a ring. If he doesn't work on smaller Kievs, he might know someone in Holland who does.

    BTW: you should hear the soft click right at the beginning of the knob turning, not half way through...
     
  18. BBonte

    BBonte Member

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    I hear the click only halfway the turn. I checked the perforation holes on the last 2 films and the pieces inbetween. They look intact to me.
    I know Roskam optics but he is more specialised in medium format. Not sure he knows anything about rangefinders. I thought there was someone in the UK working on Kiev rangefinders.
     
  19. JasonC

    JasonC Member

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    The click is half way of the turn. What kind of take up spool are you using? Wobbly take up spool could also cause frame spacing problem.

    Jason.
     
  20. mabman

    mabman Member

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    For posterity, if you do have frame spacing issues with the Kiev 4 *and* your removable take-up spool has a lot of movement (and you've tried the suggestions above), you can try what I tried: put a small amount of poster putty (a.k.a "fun-tak") on the inside of the take-up spool where it contacts the fork. It can only be a small amount, otherwise you can't properly attach the camera back. Push the spool onto the fork (in the same position as it normally goes).

    The take-up spool should move less, and also won't fall out of the camera on it's own when the back is opened, which is an added bonus.

    In my case, after trying this the frame spacing is still irregular (wider spaces at the beginning of the roll until about frame 15, then narrow spaces), but so far they haven't actually overlapped, which was my objective. Also, I got a full 36 frames out of a roll, so all in all I'll call it a success for now :smile:
     
  21. Xmas

    Xmas Member

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    Hi

    There are too many mechanics on this thread.

    If you try several films through the camera is may increase the gaps between frames.

    If you are using a J12 then some overlap is possible.

    If the camera is very worn, then the drive gears may be damaged. And you may need to strip and repair, cannabil parts or bush

    But the most frequent fault is that the clutch mechanism between the sprocket shaft drive and the film take up has not got the correct amount of friction, it is a slipping clutch, it needs to slip.

    Never had one with too much overlap before all mine start about correct and then open up the gap as the take up spool fills. Makes filing negatives difficult.

    How easy is it to rotate the spool forks with the camera shutter wound on? Is the force required the same in both directions?

    Noel
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 1, 2010
  22. T42

    T42 Member

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    New York Second

    Not for me. I appreciate the various angles of view. Of course, one has to sort through them carefully, since anyone can be a self appointed "expert" on the www. But that's just part of it.

    I would not want anyone who uses and knows the Kiev 4a not to express a helpful opinion, even if it is an imperfect one. Others reading this thread will right a wrong idea in a New York Second.

    :smile:
     
  23. Xmas

    Xmas Member

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    Hi

    I'd check that the screw in the centre (i.e. coaxial with) the forks that drive the film take up spool is not loose. It has quite a large head but it is not an auto wheen lug not, it should be tight but not torqued up.

    If it is loose counter hold the forks with padded pliers while you nip it up.

    You can strip out the 'slipping clutch' withot liftng the top plate, by undoing the coaxial screw, cleaning the fibre washers that act as the clutch, and replacing, in the same sequence.

    Normally this clutch is way to tight and will pull flm past the teeth on the sprocket shaft increasig the spacing and tearing the film

    If you are unlucky the bush that the fork shaft rides on can be worn and this may compromise the wind on gears. If the camera has been used as a pro camera in the FSU this is possible.

    If you are going to use Keiv's or Contax II(I) then you are forced to maintain yourself or buy a replacement when broke, as the replacement cost is frequently less than a pro repair + postage, unless there is sentimental valus in the camera...

    Noel