1. bicycletricycle

    bicycletricycle Subscriber

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    has anyone had a kiev88 or the upgraded versions of these cameras made by arax and hartblei/ experience comments, thanks
     
  2. Jim McD

    Jim McD Member

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    The Kiev is at the height of former Soviet block technology-it is garbage. Save your money and but an old Hasselblad.

    When you upgrade garbage, what do you have? Save your money and buy an old Hasselblad.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 13, 2005
  3. Nick Zentena

    Nick Zentena Member

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    Delphi [I think] used to have a Kiev group. Might still. It would be full of people with Kievs.

    The question I'm going to ask is what are you looking for? A Arax or Hartblei is going to cost no less then many other MF choices today. It used to make great sense a few years ago but today it's a closer call. You have to look at the various features to decide what is the best deal.
     
  4. Nick Zentena

    Nick Zentena Member

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    Hartblei will change the back connection on the 88 to take Hasselblad backs. Funny part? The Hassellblad back then becomes the weak part of the camera. :tongue:
     
  5. Dave Parker

    Dave Parker Inactive

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    I had a Hartblei modified Kiev and it was a great camera, not a problem ever, but with prices now a days, I would find a good used hassleblad and go with that, right now they are almost a dime a dozen for many of the medium format cameras.

    Dave
     
  6. gnashings

    gnashings Inactive

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    Try looking here for more info. I don't own one, but have been considering many MF choices, saving up money - and thought I would be remiss to not check into the Kievs. From the advice I got, the spotty quality control (even by the admission of those who like them) and the inconsistant performance acroos various production runs, etc., makes it a bit of a dicy proposition, especially with a nice RB67 able to be had for $400 sometimes, and even older hassys are creeping into the $500 range... As someone who is basically in your shoes (looking to buy and doing the research) I have looked, and after conisderation - I gave up on it.
     
  7. Dave Parker

    Dave Parker Inactive

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    The Hartblei, is an entirly different beast, you will not find spotty quality control on them, they are completely disassembled and redone by this company, but agree with prices the way they are, you can get others for less money.

    Dave
     
  8. Nick Zentena

    Nick Zentena Member

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    Same thing with the Arax but for the money you can get a Bronica ETRSI kit. Latest model camera. Once you add in shipping you might even get two lenses for the ETRSI for what the 88 costs. That's a late model camera with all the features. The older ones are even less money.
     
  9. sanking

    sanking Member

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    I don't know anything about the upgraded hartblei/arax cameras but I have a plain Jane 88CM Kiev and it has been a really nice and reliable camera. This is the model that takes Pentacon Six/Kiev 60 lenses. I bought the camera because I had some really nice German glass in Pentacon Six mount (50mm Flektogon, 120 Biometer, 180 Zeiss Sonnar and 300 Zeiss Sonnar).

    I bought my Kiev 88CM for $175 on ebay, in mint condition with two backs, a TTL meter prism, and 80mm multi-coated lens. I tried to find a Hasselblad with two backs, metered prism and lens at the same price, but to no avail.

    Sandy
     
  10. raucousimages

    raucousimages Member

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    A friend brought a Kiev 88 back from a trip to russia. I shot test negs against a Hasselblad, mamiya c330 and a 1950's Zenobia 645 my father shot in the Korean war. The Kiev was the worst of the bunch. The lens was junk. Why buy a camera that will give you a poor neg? She now lets her grandchildren play "pictures" with it. She paid about $320.00 for it a Mamiya c330 can be had for about $450.00 in good shape with great optics.
     
  11. Dave Parker

    Dave Parker Inactive

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    She must have really got one of the bad ones!

    What people are not taking into account is the camera this person asked about, is not a Kiev, but is a camera that has been completely taken apart, had new parts made for and brought back to the tolerances it should have been to begin with, my version I had, did quite well for me through many years of wedding shooting, in fact to this day, I will put the negs up against both my Mamiyas and my Hassy negs, in addition, depending on the model you get, you can have access to some world class glass that is available for it. The 80mm factory glass for the Kiev is a crap shoot, there are good ones, as well as bad ones out there, but this goes for any camera system..I had a 80mm Hassy lens that was absolute junk, it became a paper weight on my desk it was so bad, so even with the big name cameras, there can be bad stuff.

    Dave
     
  12. sanking

    sanking Member

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    Like Dave, I too would put 6X6 negatives from the Kiev 88CM, with both German and Russian glass, up against anything one might want to throw at them from the Mamiya, Bronica and Hasselblad firing range. Kiev cameras and glass are not junk, though quality control is an issue. But I have also found quality control to be an issue with most cameras, including Bronica, Mamiay and, my God should I say it, "Hasselblad."

    Now, if anyone want to really talk performance in a 16X20 print, the Fuji 6X9 cameras with EBC lenses will blow away any competion in 6X6 (Bronica, Mamiya, or Hasselbald). On or off tripod for direct comparison.

    Sandy
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 14, 2005
  13. gnashings

    gnashings Inactive

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    I hope I didn't throw in a bone of contention into the discussion - I tend to question any opinions that start with " camera x is complete junk" or "if you want to take pictures, don't get camera x"... And I wouldn't want anyone to think that I am of that opinion of the Kiev products - I merely found through my research, that more "sure - fire" options, if you will, are available. And now that the price is no longer as clear-cut an adventage as it was - especially for someone like myself, it may be wiser to look to an option with fewer question marks. I have no doubt (actually, I have seen many examples first hand) of images produced with Kiev 88's that are far beyond anything I can hope to produce given any camera :smile: - and in their own right, world class across the board. And I may be tempted to still consider one, if it came from a reliable source - in all honesty, I have heard just as much or more to the detriment of Bronica gear (as far as relibility and quality conistance is concerned) - and yet I know that hobbyist and professional alike, many swear by them. For many people, like myself, purchase of even a used MF rig is a large outlay of cash in comparison to our "disposible income", and I can certainly sympathise with anyone who wants to get as much for his/her dollar as possible, and perhaps more importantly - as much trouble free use down the road, as possible... I guess what I am trying to say is that a "peeing contest" between proponents of various brands is not really very helpful, is it?
     
  14. Nick Zentena

    Nick Zentena Member

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    I've never heard anybody complain about the lenses. Sure you can find one with fungus or whatever but then you can find a lemon from anybody. If you really didn't like the lenses nothing stops you from sticking Zeiss Jena or Schiender [I think it was Schiender] lenses on the body. Kiev lenses also tend to be faster then the average MF lens. If you're using the wide open and comparing them against a different lens at F/4 or whatever then it's not apples to apples.

    People seem to have a wierd double standard about Kievs. The average Kiev was a pro camera that was hard used. OTOH I doubt many ever got a CLA. My Kiev 6C is I think 35 years old. Before I had it CLA'd it likely had never been touched. Yet it works 100%. How many other hard used camras could handle that? How many western pros would go more then 2 years without a CLA? Without having backup bodies?
     
  15. Tom Hoskinson

    Tom Hoskinson Member

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    I agree, in fact, my favorite wide angle 6x6 lens is an ARSAT 55mm MC PC lens. I should add that I have East German Zeiss MC Flektagons, West German Tstar Zeiss Distagons and a Schneider MC Curtagon for comparison.

    [/QUOTE]Now, if anyone want to really talk performance in a 16X20 print, the Fuji 6X9 cameras with EBC lenses will blow away any competion in 6X6 (Bronica, Mamiya, or Hasselbald). On or off tripod for direct comparison.

    Sandy[/QUOTE]

    I'm in agreement there as well!
    BTW, the 645 EBC Fujinons are no slouch either!
     
  16. sanking

    sanking Member

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    And the 55-90 Fujinon EBC zoon on the Fuj 645GA Zi is just fabulous for a vario focus lens. I purchased this camera just a few weeks ago and have been very impressed with the quality of the lens. This is really a very sweet point and shoot camera.

    Sandy
     
  17. medformatjunkie

    medformatjunkie Member

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    How about Bronica?

    I'd go with a nice used Bronica system, like a SQ-Ai probably find a used one around $600 if you have a local shop or maybe even less on ebay!
     
  18. JeffD

    JeffD Member

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    I have a kiev 60 and accessories for sale

    I got a Kiev 60 in a lot of camera equipment I bought. Came with an extra lens, seperate metered viewfinder, filters, etc.

    I never intended to keep it, but wound up doing so, as it was much more robust and functional than I expected. I had an idea to put a pinhole bodycap on it (I take a lot of pinhole pics) and use it as a nice pinhole camera, in addition to lens camera, but that never came about.

    Sadly, now I'm having to clean out my camera collection, if anyone is interested.

    Would be a fun camera to experiment in medium format with.

    Here is what comes with it:

    Kiev 60 Single Lens Reflex complete outfit with meter prism and waist level finders, 80mm 2.8 lens with shade, 2 extension tubes. Everything works perfectly. BONUSES: extra lens for Kiev: 65mm 3.5 Wide Angle works fine and takes excellent pictures; ALSO set of filters with adapter for 80mm lens, including Softener, Dual Mask Set (clear center and black center spot), Graded Purple, Red with clear center, Ambico Action 7724 which has split field of clear and close up areas, Diffusion with clear center, 62mm Circular Polarizer

    $165, + whatever it costs to ship
     

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    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 15, 2005
  19. sunnyroller

    sunnyroller Member

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    Kiev 88 from Kiev Camera

    I bought one from Kiev Camera in March and have been quite happy with the overall quality of the camera and the service from Kiev. Due to my stupidity, I stripped the gear in the winder. I called to see if it was covered under warranty or what it would cost to get it fixed and they told me to ship it back and I would have a new camera in a week. I shipped it out on a Monday, they received it on Wednesday and on Friday I had a new camera. No fuss, no muss! It only cost me the price of shipping. The biggest factor for me in deciding to go with Kiev was the very reasonable prices for Russian lenses and the ability to upgrade to Zeiss lens when I could afford it. The second biggest factor was their return policy and 1 year warranty. I probably could have waited around patiently and found a used Hassy or Mamiya setup for close to the same money, but I would not have had a warranty and that seemed to be more of a crap shoot than Kiev's reputation for quality control issues.
     
  20. bicycletricycle

    bicycletricycle Subscriber

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    ialready have a 500cm and a c3

    i already ahve a hasselblad and a mamiya, im looking for a battery independent 6x6 with a pentacon six mount. I really want the hartblei 45mm shift tilt lense and they make adapters for mamiya 645 and contax and pentax but they are all 6x4.5 and i want square. i wish i could adapt these lenses to a hasselblad, either a 200 or 2000 series but nobody has done it, i might try later, anybody got a 200 series hassy to donate? thanks for all the replies.
     
  21. Nick Zentena

    Nick Zentena Member

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    Assuming we can't talk you into getting a 4x5 instead-) Go to Arax and ask about the Kiev 60 kit but ask him for the lens you want instead of the 80mm standard lens.
     
  22. sanking

    sanking Member

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    One thing you want to consider is that the Kiev 88CM, which takes the Pentacon mount lenses, is a much better camera than the older Kiev 88. One important difference is that it uses a cloth shutter rather than the metal one on the older Kievs, and this makes it quiter as well as reduces tension on the shutter mechanism. The design of the back is also a real big improvement over the older Kiev 88. So you might find that the 88CM satisfies your needs nicely without the extra expense of the hartblei rework.

    Sandy
     
  23. xpista

    xpista Member

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    I own one and I must say I am pretty much satisfied.

    - It works for me more than year without any problems detected, produces nice pictures in the available light. The focusing screen might be a bit brighter, but I can live with it.

    - The only disadvantage I found is the X-Sync time = 1/30 sec, which is pretty slow.

    - The main advantage is the price, especially when it comes to lenses. You can buy pretty good Zeiss lenses for less than $200 (I bought MC biometar 80, MC biometar 120 and MC sonnar 180 - all less than $200 on ebay (in excellent condition)).