Knox gelatine

Discussion in 'Alternative Processes' started by Jorge, Sep 24, 2002.

  1. Jorge

    Jorge Inactive

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    Hi all, since I moved to Mexico, shipping costs for materials are eating my lunch money. I usually have done the sizing with 250 bloom gelatine. Today I saw a box of unflavored Knox gelatine and decided to buy it and test to see if it will work for pt/pd but I would really appreciate to know the experiences of someone who has used it. What bloom is it? processing tips? did it change the color of your prints? etc, etc. Later...........
     
  2. carlweese

    carlweese Member

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    Food grade gelatin is quite pure--I know carbon printers have found it perfectly adequate for making carbon "tissue". I don't know the bloom value.

    But what paper are you using? I don't find any need to do extra sizing for Pt/Pd printing. There are at least half a dozen papers that work reliably with no extra preparation--though that can change at any moment when you get a new batch.---Carl
     
  3. Jorge

    Jorge Inactive

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    </span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (carlweese @ Sep 25 2002, 04:09 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Food grade gelatin is quite pure--I know carbon printers have found it perfectly adequate for making carbon &quot;tissue&quot;. I don't know the bloom value.

    But what paper are you using? I don't find any need to do extra sizing for Pt/Pd printing. There are at least half a dozen papers that work reliably with no extra preparation--though that can change at any moment when you get a new batch.---Carl</td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>
    I am using Guarro watercolor paper, looks like an 80#....very thin. Again I am stuck with what I can find here. I tried it without sizing and the print looked horrible. So I am trying with sizing now. If it does not work then I will just have to bite the bullet and get it from B&S when I order more stuff.
    Thanks Carl!
     
  4. cjarvis

    cjarvis Member

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    I've used Knox gelatine for salted paper prints. Works fine for me.
     
  5. Jorge

    Jorge Inactive

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    cj, give more info please. What dilution you use? I used 30 grams in 1000 ml and it worked fine, but always want to have more information. How many coats do you use? what paper do you use.....? IOW give it up... [​IMG]
     
  6. edbuffaloe

    edbuffaloe Member

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    Jorge,
    I have used Knox gelatine to size prints for salt paper. I use the formula that mixes the gelatine with the salt--I'm in process of moving and all my books are boxed, so I can't give you the exact formula, but it was listed in two different books. The formula was for small amounts to be brush coated, but I mixed enough to dip the paper in, since both the gelatine and salt are relatively cheap. I floated the paper and coated both sides, then hung it to dry. Coating both sides keeps the paper from curling. Paper was Fabriano Artistico. It worked great.
    Ed
     
  7. Jorge

    Jorge Inactive

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    Thanks Ed. I did see the formulations for salted paper. You are not moving away from Austin are you?
     
  8. cjarvis

    cjarvis Member

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    I add 3 grams of gelatin to 100 ml of water and let it sit for a few minutes to swell. Then I stir in 400 ml of hot water to dissolve the gelatin. Size away. I would have to agree with Carl's question, though...why size a paper to be used for Pt?
     
  9. cjarvis

    cjarvis Member

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    Oh, I use Cranes Kid Finish.
     
  10. Jorge

    Jorge Inactive

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    Thanks a lot cjarvis! I see yours and most everybody formulation is more dilute than what Dick Arentz reccomends in his book...30 gr of gelatin in 1000 ml. I am very surprised.

    I was trying to size due to crappy paper....trying to get away from ordering from the US....no dice.....anyway, thanks for your response.
     
  11. fparnold

    fparnold Member

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    One side question: how do you harden the gelatin size? Generally recommended are formaldehyde or glyoxal, but I'd rather not keep formaldehyde derivatives around the house. Are there any good alternatives, or is this a "deal with it or print something else" issue?
     
  12. Jorge

    Jorge Inactive

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    </span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (fparnold @ Sep 28 2002, 07:44 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>One side question: how do you harden the gelatin size? Generally recommended are formaldehyde or glyoxal, but I'd rather not keep formaldehyde derivatives around the house. Are there any good alternatives, or is this a &quot;deal with it or print something else&quot; issue?</td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>
    fparnold, Arentz reccomends Chrome Potassium Sulfate, I did not have this so I just used the hardener that comes with the Kodak rapid fixer since I never use it in the fixer. It worked like a charm, but probably left the paper acidic. I did not test it since I am only trying stuff now, no need to worry about permanence at this time.
     
  13. smieglitz

    smieglitz Subscriber

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    </span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Jorge @ Sep 24 2002, 12:15 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Hi all, since I moved to Mexico, shipping costs for materials are eating my lunch money. I usually have done the sizing with 250 bloom gelatine. Today I saw a box of unflavored Knox gelatine and decided to buy it and test to see if it will work for pt/pd but I would really appreciate to know the experiences of someone who has used it. What bloom is it? processing tips? did it change the color of your prints? etc, etc. Later...........</td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>
    Hi,

    I've experimented with a few sizing agents, mainly for gum printing. I've always found the Knox the least suitable. I believe it is around 80 bloom (although I can't remember where I read that several years ago). I think the best thing is to just bite the bullet and go with the 250 from B&S as it is consistent. Another alternative which I use for gum printing is canvas hide glue sizing and it is my favorite when I want to try avoiding subsequent hardening. It is available in most art supply stores, is less expensive and apparently harder than the gelatins, but slightly yellower.

    As far as the hardener, I'm not sure that glyoxal is really less toxic than formalin. It doesn't irritate as quickly as formaldehyde, but if you can smell it, you are probably lacking adequate ventilation for using either. (Just like some newer artists' paint solvents don't smell as bad as traditional turpentines so some people expose themselves to the fumes longer...there's some reciprocity going on there.) Glyoxal certainly doesn't harden as well in my experience.

    Joe
     
  14. Jorge

    Jorge Inactive

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    </span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (smieglitz @ Oct 18 2002, 08:36 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>
    I've experimented with a few sizing agents, mainly for gum printing. I've always found the Knox the least suitable. I believe it is around 80 bloom (although I can't remember where I read that several years ago). I think the best thing is to just bite the bullet and go with the 250 from B&amp;S as it is consistent. Another alternative which I use for gum printing is canvas hide glue sizing and it is my favorite when I want to try avoiding subsequent hardening. It is available in most art supply stores, is less expensive and apparently harder than the gelatins, but slightly yellower.

    As far as the hardener, I'm not sure that glyoxal is really less toxic than formalin. It doesn't irritate as quickly as formaldehyde, but if you can smell it, you are probably lacking adequate ventilation for using either. (Just like some newer artists' paint solvents don't smell as bad as traditional turpentines so some people expose themselves to the fumes longer...there's some reciprocity going on there.) Glyoxal certainly doesn't harden as well in my experience.

    Joe</td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>
    Well I actually bit the bullet and ordered Cranes Platinite and Socorro Platinium. Since I am ordering from B&S might as well order all from one supplier and forget about the sizing, boy is that boring!
    I am curious about your glue thing though, how did you come across this as sizing? how about permanence?
    I dont know if you do gum over pt/pd, Kerik Kouklis and others are producing some wonderful work with this combination but some people are having trouble with the gum bleaching the pt as dichromate is a bleaching agent. I wonder if the glue would fasten the pt and prevent it from bleaching? hmmm......ah well, that will be another project to be done....
    Thanks smieglitz for the food for thought.
     
  15. smieglitz

    smieglitz Subscriber

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    </span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Jorge @ Oct 18 2002, 06:09 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>...
    I am curious about your glue thing though, how did you come across this as sizing? how about permanence? ...</td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>
    Jorge,

    I tried glue sizing after starting to oil paint and reading the literature on materials used in that medium. It is the traditional size for canvas through the ages and so I would consider it quite permanent.

    In terms of permanence, hardening in formaldehyde also adds to the longevity of prints on paper. Keeps those critters from chomping on the paper.

    Joe
     
  16. Jorge

    Jorge Inactive

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    </span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (smieglitz @ Oct 18 2002, 09:35 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>I tried glue sizing after starting to oil paint and reading the literature on materials used in that medium. &nbsp;It is the traditional size for canvas through the ages and so I would consider it quite permanent.

    In terms of permanence, hardening in formaldehyde also adds to the longevity of prints on paper. &nbsp;Keeps those critters from chomping on the paper.

    Joe</td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>
    I thought as much, let me ask you does the glue give the paper a "shiny" finish? I know next to nothing about painting, but I remember seeing some canvases that were sort of yellowish and shiny being prepared for painting. Is this the thing you are talking about? when you size your paper with this, does it end with a shiny surface? I am asking because this might be a way to increase D max when printing in pt/pd.
     
  17. smieglitz

    smieglitz Subscriber

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    </span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Jorge @ Oct 19 2002, 04:41 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Is this the thing you are talking about? when you size your paper with this, does it end with a shiny surface? I am asking because this might be a way to increase D max when printing in pt/pd.</td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>
    Jorge,

    Hmm. Never really thought about that much. I'd say it was a bit shinier than gelatin. But, I usually end up coating the prints with an acrylic gloss spray (Krylon Crystal Clear) to increase the gloss and final dMax. The gum prints on rough matte surface watercolor papers can be pretty be fairly dull. The final coating after clearing the dichromate tends to saturate the colors and increase gloss and density.

    I suppose one could try a final gelatin or glue overcoat but I think part of the charm of Pt/Pd and some of the other hand-coated processes is the quiet matte surface. I had a friend who used the Palladio stuff for awhile, but it was so perfect that it looked more like a silverprint to me. I guess I just have an idea in my head of what a Pt/Pd "should" look like, and glossy doesn't fit that personal idea.

    That's related to why I print in gum. Color prints (cibachromes, chromogenics, etc.) just don't look normal to me. They may be more "accurate", but I like other color palettes and for a print to appear handcrafted and a step or two removed from reality. Thus I prefer things like gumprints, carbon, etc. I LOVE the autochromes I've seen. They are obviously images/prints and not some mimicry of the real. In contrast, look at standard color senior pictures sometime. Fairly accurate flesh tones against that weird blue background. Yucho! I've never seen even one that I like. However, those old warm-toned monochrome portraits from a half-century and more ago are just lovely. (And still around.)

    So, I guess I'd promote imaging and visualization in terms of the process with its inherent qualities. Is anything worse than reprinting a photograph meant for one process into Platinum just to make it more marketable in a gallery? Sacrilege! But, I diverge...

    Plus, I'm not selling much either.

    [​IMG]

    Joe
     
  18. Jorge

    Jorge Inactive

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    Joe I know what you mean, actually I have a booklet from a guy who firgured out how to coat enlarger paper with pt/pd. Although interesting I have not done it since I think it would make the print look a lot like a silver print.
    Thanks for your thoughts and help. Later.........