Kodak flexicolor c-41 b

Discussion in 'Color: Film, Paper, and Chemistry' started by wildtypitch, Jan 11, 2010.

  1. wildtypitch

    wildtypitch Member

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    After about 6 months of frustratingly trying to source c41 chemicals in Beijing I ended up finding an all in one flexicolor kit made buy Kodak (wuxi) here in China. It cost me 180rmb or $26US here what's in the box.

    Developer replenisher A + B + C to make 10L {replenish @ 17ml/m}
    Bleach III NR replenisher 2.5L (no dilution required) {replenish @4.5 ml/m}
    Fixer and replenisher to make 20L {replenish @ 36 ml/m}
    Final rinse and replenisher to make 20L {replenish @ 36ml/m}

    I'm new to c-41 and have a jobo cpe2
    From what I've gathered I am missing the starting solution for both the dev and bleach (instructions mention them in the mixing stages). I'll have to go back and buy them.
    These replenishment rates seem very low, I guess though as I'm using a jobo with max chemical use of 600ml at a time I'll bottling the dev up in 1L jars and sealing the rest until required. Am I better of just using one shot or is it doable to replenish 1L quantities? I intend to run 10-20 120 rolls a week.

    Another thing mentioned in the kodak sheet is that this c-41b process requires no washing, is this true for jobo use, surely the chemicals will contaminate each other if not used one-shot.

    Interesting that this is available in China (C-41 even processed in the best labs here is terrible, maybe Kodak have realised), its not available in these quantities in the UK, seems perfect for job users like me.
     
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  2. mtjade2007

    mtjade2007 Member

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    That's an excellent price for that much of chemicals. For USD$26 it would be 4 liters of C-41SM developer only and nothing else for me here in California from retail stores.

    You will need a C-41B (that means it's a LORR chemical) developer starter only. You don't need starters for the bleach and fix chemicals. C-41B developer starter is not the same as C-41 developer starter. Make sure your developer replenisher is LORR before getting LORR starter. If your developer is not LORR then you will want to get standard developer starter.

    I use a Jobo ATL-2300. I never succeeded in replenishing my developer. Kodak says never replenish the developer for rotary processing. I use my developer one shot only always. I don't know what it means by no washing. I would give wash between bleach and fix and after fix before final rinse. No wash should be done after final rinse.

    If you use the developer one shot and develop 10 - 20 rolls of 120 per week you can mix 10 liters at a time. The developer in glass bottles full will last more than a month.
     
  3. tiberiustibz

    tiberiustibz Member

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    I agree that's a great price. You only need starter for the developer, not bleach.

    When processing simply pour out the chemistry completely. The film needs to go straight from the developer into the bleach to stop the development. Wash in between the bleach and fix by filling, running briefly, and dumping once.

    I highly recommend skipping replenishment. To obtain high film quality use the developer to capacity and discard. This eliminates any issues with carryover/oxidation/evaporation/contamination that cause bad results. Use the bleach until it is exhausted because it's expensive. Use the fixer once or twice and toss because it's cheap. Wash for 3 minutes. I usually fill and dump the container 5-6 times, running it in between, about 30 seconds a piece. The wash water should be close to the other chemicals in temperature. Mix the stabilizer/final rinse with distilled water and hang to dry.
     
  4. wildtypitch

    wildtypitch Member

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    Thanks guys, the replenish math was giving me strange numbers, like I would have to replenish mid development.
    I agree and understand the need for start dev (it is lorr/c-41b) but as per the instructions the bleach IIINR also requires starter (it's part of the c-41b process that was designed to speed up processing and do and do without washes, so i'm guessing this is a modified bleach, hence the NR that requires a starter)
    For mixing the chemicals will normal tap water be fine (this is Beijing it's a little hard but clear may contain metals that make it unsafe to drink) I'm guessing de-ionised will be to unbalanced for the normal mix but great for final rinse deposit free wash. Can I mix the ABC dev (without water) and keep as stock or is this not recommended?
    For those interested I've sourced a company in China that makes jobo like processors, more info on this post
     
  5. tiberiustibz

    tiberiustibz Member

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    The bleach does not require a starter per some resident kodak Photo Engineer.

    Do not mix the concentrates. It fizzes violently and gives off noxious fumes. I've tried. They need to be added in the specified order with stirring to the specified amount of water. Although once I swapped the order by accident and it was fine AFAIK.

    I use distilled water to mix the developer (sometimes) but always the final rinse/stabilizer. This has eliminated the marks. For non critical work tap water is probably fine for the developer. You can try distilled and tap water and if you notice a difference, then use distilled.
     
  6. Tom Taylor

    Tom Taylor Member

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    "Another thing mentioned in the kodak sheet is that this c-41b process requires no washing, is this true for jobo use, surely the chemicals will contaminate each other if not used one-shot. "

    Jobo recommends a 3-minute rinse (6 changes of water) after the bleach and 5 minutes (6 changes of water) after the fixer.

    Kodak does not recommend a rinse after the bleach and only a 3 minute rinse after the fixer. I've been fiollowing Jobo's recommendations without any problem.
     
  7. tiberiustibz

    tiberiustibz Member

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    If you're tossing the fix every or every other run it doesn't really matter if you wash in between bleach and fix. Kodak's three minute rinse is in running 100 degree water, like a tornado washer or whatever. If you're in a tank you probably want to follow the Jobo instructions for tanks.

    This is the kodak small tank bible:

    http://www.kodak.com/global/plugins/acrobat/en/service/chemicals/cis211.pdf
     
  8. wildtypitch

    wildtypitch Member

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    The process is c-41B. Just want to make sure that those giving advice are also using the c-41b with 'bleach IIINR' (not bleach III).
    I've attached the Kodak sheet on it. which quotes at the beginning

    "The primary feature of this process is a shorter processing cycle. This cycle was
    made shorter by eliminating both washes and reducing the fixer time. Originally
    the process used a final wash, but the most common version in use today is the
    “washless” cycle
    ."

    But on the first page they state this

    "WHAT IS C-41B?
    C-41B is the original film cycle designed for C-41B
    minilab equipment. It has a longer bleach and fix
    time, giving an overall longer process time. It can be
    configured to have either a final rinse or a water
    wash followed by a final rinse.
    The kits are supplied as easy to mix liquids designed
    to be simple to use.
    All Kodak’s range of minilab chemicals are color
    coded on the cases, bottle labels and caps. This
    makes the chemicals easy to recognize and minimizes
    expensive mixing errors.
    The minilab chemicals are packed in specially
    designed bottles, which have excellent pouring and
    emptying characteristics, minimizing splashing and
    chemical concentrate to be rinsed out of the bottle."


    So has anyone actually used this process with a jobo? If so what do you recommend.
    Also I guess i should be shaving 15% of the processing times due to using a jobo rotary, or am I wrong?
     

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  9. Tom Taylor

    Tom Taylor Member

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    I recommend that you check Kodak's recommendation for C-41 processing in a rotary tube and follow the recommendation. The developer time is 3:15 and all other steps are taken to completion which means that you could fix and bleach for longer - but not shorter - times without it having any ill effect. As far as the rinse between the bleach and fix as recommended by Jobo, other than it taking an additional 3 minutes, it can't hurt. Jobo believes it best to remove the bleach from the film before applying the fix.
     
  10. mtjade2007

    mtjade2007 Member

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    What is C-41B? Good question. I am not sure I know the answer myself.

    I just looked at Kodak Z-131 at Kodak's web site. There are C-41, C-41B and C-41RA. C-41B and C-41RA are for minilab processors. I think they are roller transport processors. The Z-131 has tables that show the processing time for each step for each of these 3 processes. I found that:

    The development step for all 3 processes are all 3 min 15 seconds. The developer can be LORR or non LORR. They don't matter.
    The Bleach step for C-41 is 4:20' - 6:30'; 3:00' - 4:30' for C-41B and 1:00' for C-41RA. The bleach chemicals are different for each.
    The Fix step for C-41 is 4:20' - 6:30'; 4:00' - 4:20' for C-41B and 1:30' - 2:00' for C-41RA. The fix chemicals are different for each.

    I think I am using C-41B developer (LORR), C-41RA bleach and simple C-41 Fix. These were what they had and I got them that way. I am sticking to the C-41 time for each step anyway no matter what. I process my films in a Jobo ATL-2300. There are no problems except that I need to stick to Kodak's capacity recommendation, not Jobo's capacity numbers.
     
  11. wildtypitch

    wildtypitch Member

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    Because the jobo recommendation exhausts itself during one process? Is there a kodak recommendation for jobo tanks?
     
  12. mtjade2007

    mtjade2007 Member

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    According to Kodak Z-131 table 3-3, the capacity of Kodak C-41 developer is 4 - 5 rolls of 220 per gallon or 1 roll of 220 per liter. However, Jobo gives a capacity guide of 470 ml for 2 rolls of 220 (if I remember this correctly). I tried this Jobo capacity guide many times and I don't remember ever got a good negative. I wasted a lot of time to troubleshoot this in many ways but eventually concluded that the capacity of the developer is simply much lower than that. I now develop only one roll of 220 with something like 850 ml of developer. The result is always good. This is close to Kodak's table 3-3. I planned to try again with 500 ml to process a roll of 220. Haven't got the time to do it yet. I believe I have done this before and the result was poor. I will do it again to validate (or the opposite) the number in Kodak's table 3-3.

    Kodak does not specifically recommend capacity numbers for rotary processing. It does say never replenish the developer in rotary processing. Table 3-3 is the capacity guide for general batch processing.
     
  13. Iwagoshi

    Iwagoshi Subscriber

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    There may not be a Kodak recommendation for JOBO but I did find a JOBO article on C-41. I hope this helps.
     

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  14. mtjade2007

    mtjade2007 Member

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    Thanks for posting the article. I believe this is one of the Jobo's Quarterly articles. It does not say anything about Kodak C-41 developer capacity specific to rotary processing associated with Jobo processors. I once went through all those articles. I found that they never mentioned anything about C_41 developer capacity (Nor E-6) for rotary processing. The only capacity Jobo ever gave was numbers of film reels for every possible combination of Jobo tanks for every most format of films and the required volume of chemical for each reel/tank combination. The volume numbers gave by Jobo did not specify it they are for C-41, E-6 or B&W or whatever. I interpret those numbers as the minimum volume required but not necessarily the correct number for the amount of film contained in the Jobo tank. Kodak does give a capacity guide and it is the correct guide to follow even it says it is for batch processing.

    This is such an old issue about C-41 developer capacity that seem never end.
     
  15. wildtypitch

    wildtypitch Member

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    thats a real drag as my cpp2 only has 600ml bottle capacity, so in effect I can't process c-41 in this machine a machine that was designed specifically for c-41 (or other four step processes) unless I do it at one 120 at a time which is madness.
    I managed to source developer starter and bleach starter today, although I was told that Kodak don't make dev starter anymore so I bough half a bottle of expired stuff, anyone know if this expires rapidly like dev? Also bought a fuji dev starter that they said was compatable with kodak dev lorr. Not so sure about that though.
     
  16. Iwagoshi

    Iwagoshi Subscriber

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  17. bob100684

    bob100684 Member

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    RA-4 dev starter can go bad....at least fuji brand. I don't think you need bleach starter as the bleach step runs to completion...so there is no real thing as bleach that is too strong.
     
  18. mtjade2007

    mtjade2007 Member

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    The "capacity" I am talking about is the capability of the developer. For a roll of 220 negative Kodak Z-131 says it needs 1 liter of it to develop it. I tried 850 ml and it is still good. When I tried it with 500 ml I had color crossover and coarse grain problems. The overall density of the negative looked normal but color wise the film was ruined basically. I did not know it was a developer capacity problem and spent a lot of time to troubleshoot and wasted a lot of films. Of course I may be wrong still. So I wanted to try another roll of 220 with just 500 ml pf fresh developer again. Due to winter weather I have not got the chance to get it done yet.

    2 rolls of 120 in a 1520 tank with 240 ml of developer sounds too good to be true to me. Again I may be wrong. so could you tell me if the negatives were perfect? The two Jobo files give the minimum volume of juice required for the specific tank and number of reels possible for the tank. Jobo does say to refer to the chemical manufacturer's suggested volume to determine the exact volume of chemicals needed.

    If Kodak Z-131 is right that it does take a liter of developer for a roll of 220 it really sucks that my huge ATL-2300 can not process 2 rolls of 220 negatives at a time. I wish I am wrong but so far I have never succeeded in processing 2 rolls of 220 at a time with the max amount of developer I can use (that's 1 liter exactly). ATL-2300 has 1 liter tanks and can program to use 1 liter max of chemical only.
     
  19. Iwagoshi

    Iwagoshi Subscriber

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    "Perfect negatives." Hmmm...there is always room for improvements, but I have not complaints. The results with 240 ml of chemistry (E-6, HC110b, Fuji Microfine) in the 1520 tank in conjunction with a CPP-2 with lift arm have been consistent.

    I have yet to try C-41, that's why I'm here like you trying to get a handle on the chemistry. I'm usually a slide-guy but had to use Pro 800. At $8.50 a roll for developing I'm definitely motivated to do C-41 @home.
     
  20. wildtypitch

    wildtypitch Member

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    Are we talking about dev lorr or the standard dev, I have the lorr dev with is supposed to need replenishing half the amount the standard does, which I guess it means it has double the capacity?
     
  21. mtjade2007

    mtjade2007 Member

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    LORR developer is what I use to make working developer. As a replenisher it does have more capacity but not really twice. I think it is more like 1.5 times or less. It takes 763 ml of LORR developer replenisher to make 1 liter of working developer by adding 30 ml of LORR starter and water.I believe it takes something like almost 900 ml of non LORR developer replenisher to make 1 liter on the other hand. But once it becomes a working developer it is no different from regular non LORR developer. I know that the replenisher rate according to Kodak seems that LORR has twice the potency. I don't know how to interpret that.

    I also found, by ruining many rolls of films, that reuse of developer by extending development time do not work for rotary processing. This was quite a surprise to me because almost everyone said it can be done. But when I did that it simply did not work. The negative processed with fresh developer, if enough volume of developer is used, did come out great. But when the developer was used for another roll with extended development time I seemed to aways run into issues with color crossover and grain. Again I really wish I am wrong about all these. I will shoot a few rolls of 220 just to experiment one more round. I will use one of the Kodak C-41 gallon sized developer packages I have on hand, instead of making it out of my LORR replenisher.