Kodak Flexicolor Developer Starter (according to MSDS)

Discussion in 'Color: Film, Paper, and Chemistry' started by Athiril, Mar 31, 2010.

  1. Athiril

    Athiril Subscriber

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    Is:

    10 - 15% Potassium Carbonate
    1 - 5% Pentetic Acid, pentasodium salt
    1 - 5% Sodium Sulphite
    1 - 5% Sodium Bromide

    Where as E-6 Colour Developer Starter (which I have) is:

    20 - 25% Acetic Acid
    15 - 15% Sodium Bromide

    I just received about 200+ litres of flexicolor developer replenisher, but it doesn't have any starter with it, so I need to mix my own, so I was wondering if anyone can give me a bit more accurate numbers.

    I have potassium carbonate and sodium sulphite, no sodium bromide (apart from E-6 CD starter), though I have both benzotriazole and potassium bromide.

    I have no pentetic acid and haven't heard of it before, wiki gives me this info:

    "The molecule can be viewed as an expanded version of EDTA and it is used similarly."

    "Like the more common EDTA, DTPA is mainly used for sequestering metal ions that otherwise decompose hydrogen peroxide, which is used to bleach pulp in paper making."
    (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pentetic_acid)

    I'm assuming the pentetic acid is what makes it 'last twice as long' as previous Kodak C-41 developers.


    And that all I really need to do with the starter is add sulphite and bromide, and set the right pH of the developer.. but I could then potentially have 1/5th the correct amount of sulphite and bromide, or up to 5x too much, if following the MSDS.

    Any help would be greatly appreciated :smile:

    I was thinking I could possibly just place 10g/l of benzotriazole for starter (14ml of starter is used per 1 litre of working solution), looking at C-41 recipes I esitmate maybe it should be ~9% bromide?
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 31, 2010
  2. mtjade2007

    mtjade2007 Member

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    Kodak C-41 Developer Starter is very cheap and available from B&H and Adorama. You may want to buy it than mixing it yourself.
     
  3. thisismyname09

    thisismyname09 Member

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    AFAIK, pentetic acid isn't easily available anywhere online. The starter is really cheap; a $7 bottle makes several gallons, iirc.
     
  4. 2F/2F

    2F/2F Member

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    To my recollection, Flexicolor starter and replenisher are both mixed from the same concentrate. Diluting the concentrate one way makes starter. Diluting it another way makes replenisher. You mix both, and start processing your film directly with the starter. You then continue to add so much replenisher for every so many square inches of film you process. The bottle I have seen since the one gallon kit was discontinued says "Flexicolor starter and replenisher", I believe (or something similar). I have not started using this kit yet, as I still have many one gallon kits stockpiled. Thus, I have not worked with its ins and outs, but I do believe that is what the bottle sez.

    You do not have to use a replenished process, if it turns out that my memory is correct re: starter and replenisher being made from the same concentrate. You can just mix fresh starter from your concentrates for every batch if you want. Lord knows you have enough of the stuff!
     
  5. tiberiustibz

    tiberiustibz Member

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    $7 a bottle makes many many gallons.
     
  6. Photo Engineer

    Photo Engineer Subscriber

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    The starter is intended to turn the replenisher into unseasoned starting developer. So, you can either buy C41 developer or C41 developer replenisher + starter. The latter combination makes the former when mixed properly.

    An MSDS may legally omit chemicals considered harmless or chemicals that fall below a certain concentration or chemicals which are to be considered trade secrets. Don't rely on an MSDS. It is intended to help emergency crews work in the presence of fire, flood and other emergencies while pretty much knowing the properties of a given substance.

    PE
     
  7. mtjade2007

    mtjade2007 Member

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    Am I reading this right or what? Developer starter and developer replenisher are very different. Developer starter is not a concentrate. It is to be added to a replenisher to make that replenisher a normal developer ready to be used.

    On the other hand developer replenisher is normally a concentrate with part A, B and C bottles. To make a developer replenisher you start with a lot of water then add part A, B and C. After that it is a replenisher still. It can be used to replenish an exhausted developer or by adding developer starter and some more water it becomes working developer. Don't use a replenisher as a developer. It is too hot and it at least needs further dilution by adding water.

    In the case of LORR version of the developer replenisher you take 763 ml of the replenisher and add 30 ml of LORR starter then top it up with water to make 1 liter of LORR developer. I always mix my developer this way. Just processed about 6 rolls of films already in the past few days.
     
  8. Athiril

    Athiril Subscriber

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    The box says it requires starter, the box doesnt say developer + replenisher like the fix and bleach boxes do, it says developer replenisher.

    The instructions on the side indicate how to mix 50 litres of replenisher, and that 860 ml of replenisher + 18ml developer starter LORR + 122ml water = 1 litre of C-41 developer. (where as another box says 860ml of replenisher - seems to be indentical replenisher - with 14ml flexicolor developer starter (not LORR) + 126ml water).


    It's not $7, its more like $70 once you account for the $5 worth of shipping to Australia, plus they wont send it outside of the U.S. Vanbar doesnt seem to have Flexicolor Starter for sale as far as I can see.. but all the other Flexicolor stuff.. its probably included.

    The catalogue number on the box is 403 6802.




    In any case, essentially, I dont need starter, I just need to use it for a while then continually replenish and all should be good?
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 31, 2010
  9. Photo Engineer

    Photo Engineer Subscriber

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  10. Athiril

    Athiril Subscriber

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    Sorry made a mistake in my post above, box says it requires starter, not replenisher. Corrected.

    In any case, I have plenty of replenisher, a lot actually. Parts A, B and C.

    The manual for mixing says for starter - 'Solution added to diluted chemical concentrates to
    prepare a fresh tank solution so that it yields results similar
    to those provided by a seasoned tank solution.'

    If its only the bromide or restrainer that is critical, which it more or less seems like it given starters for other processes such as the E-6 Colour Developer Starter, then shouldnt it be able to be 'seasoned' with age/usage? And in that case, I'd be able to add a substitute/alternative starter?


    And by $70 from $5 postage, I mean that something that would cost a normal person $5 to post from there to here, 'costs' normally around $60+ from any of the U.S. photographic places, they also normally don't allow shipping outside of the U.S. on liquid chemicals.

    Upon checking shipping prices on the starter it was $60.55 to $90 something (3 options), if they'd allow the order to go through.
     
  11. brucemuir

    brucemuir Member

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    Man, I really feel for you being in OZ.
    It is only a matter of time before we here in the states can't get any c 41 chemicals the way things are going.
    C41 Bleach is already a lotto to find it.

    I sure hope someone can reverse engineer the chemicals cause we'll all be mixing from scratch soon for C 41...
    probably have to switch to all b/w process.