Kodak Hardener substitute?

Discussion in 'B&W: Film, Paper, Chemistry' started by Greg Davis, Jul 1, 2013.

  1. Greg Davis

    Greg Davis Member

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    I am about to make some prints to experiment with LegacyPro Brown toner, and to also try the Kodak Polytoner substitute that Kodak published a few years back. They both recommend using Kodak F5-A hardener after toning. Can I use the hardener that is packaged with Kodak Rapid Fix as a substitute? I have plenty of that on hand.
     
  2. Tom1956

    Tom1956 Inactive

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    I'd use it in a second.
     
  3. MattKing

    MattKing Subscriber

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    I don't think so - at least not on its own.

    As I understand it, the Part B hardener is designed to work with the Part A fixer, and not on its own.

    And I don't believe that there are any dilution instructions out there for the Part B hardener on its own.

    There is an APUG thread somewhere where the use of hardener is discussed and, if I recall correctly, PE recommended just using hardening fixer - so you could mix up a batch of the Kodak Rapid Fixer with the hardener.

    In my case, I use some of the older, regular hardening Kodak Fixer for post-toning hardening of my RC prints.

    It does mean more washing though.
     
  4. tkamiya

    tkamiya Member

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    I use Legacy Pro brown toner as well as Photographer's Formulary's sepia toner. I know they both suggest using hardening fixer or hardener after toning but I don't.... Never had any issue with softening of emulsions. I'd just skip it....
     
  5. Greg Davis

    Greg Davis Member

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    To follow up on this, after talking to Kodak, I can use the part B from the Rapid Fixer diluted 1:13.
     
  6. MattKing

    MattKing Subscriber

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    Greg:

    Thanks for this info.

    I'm surprised at the dilution though. That seems to be much more concentrated than when it is used with the Rapid Fixer.
     
  7. Tom1956

    Tom1956 Inactive

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    Well Kodak is the gospel. Do it their way.
     
  8. MattKing

    MattKing Subscriber

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    Greg (or anyone else):

    Have you any information about the capacity of the diluted working solution hardener, whether it must be used "one-shot" and what storage life the diluted working strength hardener can be expected to have?

    Thanks,
     
  9. Greg Davis

    Greg Davis Member

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    No, I haven't used it yet. I am just doing some planning.
     
  10. clayne

    clayne Member

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    I have never used hardener with brown toner but I also am careful with it while toning. Unrelated to that make sure you throw the print in the hypo clear BEFORE you arrive at your desired tone. It's very easy for brown toner to keep going. Sometimes it's possible to take advantage of this by hitting it with hypo clear a bit before toning to where you want and then throw it in the print washer to let the toning taper off to where you want it to be. Plan on screwing a few prints up before you get the hang of it. Also buy sodium sulfite from art craft so you can just make a one time stop bath cheaply.

    I also prefer selenium toning prints before I brown tone so that the selenium keeps things under control. However if you did not do this at the end of original printing you're going to have to do an intermediate wash between se and polysulfide toning.
     
  11. Cruzingoose

    Cruzingoose Member

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    Cheap Hardner

    Since it is sulfuric acid, I get it at the local battery store in quart containers. Dilute 4 water 1 acid.
     
  12. MattKing

    MattKing Subscriber

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    According to the MSDS, it is also 15 - 20% (by weight) Aluminum Sulfate.
     
  13. Cruzingoose

    Cruzingoose Member

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    After looking up AS on Wiki, it seems it is not a necessary ingredient to the hardening process. Might be used to keep the mixed solution clear.
     
  14. jnanian

    jnanian Advertiser Advertiser

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    hey greg

    if you run into a bind and the kodak hardener runs out
    look for sprint alum hardener .. its cheap and works well.
    i use it in my fix baths when i process plates, and when
    i process plates in it by mistake. it doesn't work as a developer very well :wink:
     
  15. silveror0

    silveror0 Member

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    Be sure to add the acid to the water, the reverse is dangerous.

    http://chemistry.about.com/od/chemistrystudentfaqs/f/sulfuricwater.htm

    I recall my high school chem teacher saying to remember: A to W, that's aw wight.