Kodak Tri-X B&W reversal *slide* film - how to process ???

Discussion in 'B&W: Film, Paper, Chemistry' started by nick mulder, Oct 15, 2005.

  1. nick mulder

    nick mulder Member

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    Kodak Plus-X B&W reversal *slide* film - how to process ???

    Hi,

    I have recently obtained a large amount (20,000 feet) of Kodak Plus-X B&W reversal slide film ... (50 ASA)

    I can have it cross processed into negative at the lab but it is an expensive process for them as it is so uncommon - the neg also has a lot more grain than the film would if it were regularly processed into slide ...

    Does anyone know the process for B&W slide ? either cross-processed (C41 ??) or standard (E6 ??) or ??


    Another issue tho not as important is that it is actually 16mm film (7276 for you cine types) I have to make a damn large dev tank to take maybe up to 100 feet at a time ... no sprocketed immersion system for me...

    I plan to make lay down cut segments of it to make contact prints and enlargements of sequences of motion from it via a 16mm camera ...

    just trying to cut down the costs and hopefully learn something as well


    cheers!
    nick
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 15, 2005
  2. wildbill

    wildbill Member

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    Check out dr5.com. Maybe they could help but i don't think they'll give you their recipe. I've got a 16&35mm 100ft developing tank made by Morse. If it doesn't come with directions let me know. They're old but they are sometimes on ebay and i saw a guy selling one on photo.net earlier this year.
     
  3. nick mulder

    nick mulder Member

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    Interesting site that one...

    I mistakenly put listed my film as Tri-x - which it isn't, its Plus-X - which is already a +ve film - so i wonder what dr5 would give me, a +ve or neg...

    In the tested films section of the site the 7276 logo is there but I get a 404 error on the link - I've emailed them to see whats up ...

    cheers,
    nick


    ps to others who may be reading >> still interested also in doing this myself, any ideas ? (;
     
  4. Neal

    Neal Subscriber

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  5. Neal

    Neal Subscriber

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  6. Neal

    Neal Subscriber

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    Please excuse the double post, I have not idea how that happened.
     
  7. cvik

    cvik Member

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    All black and white film create a negative image. Even Scala is a black and white negative film (probably APX100 but with a clear base). All black and white films, except the chromogenic ones, can be developed into a postive.

    The process is simply to develop it as a negative with your normal b&w developer, bleach/clear, re-expose the whole film (chemically or by light), and develop the new exposed areas.

    There are many variations but all boils down to the same procedure. Some use light, some use chemicals, some variations in bleach/clear-baths... First developer is chosen based on what look you want, second developer will typically be a paper developer as it develops the whole image faster (everything not exposed is bleached already...). You may have normal roomlight on after you've cleared the image. The rest is to be exposed completly and developed anyway.

    Let me know if you want papers and instructions on how to do it.

    Christian
     
  8. nworth

    nworth Subscriber

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    See the Kodak web site under motion picture products for information about processing Plus-X Reversal film. The process is similar to that used to reversal process Tmax-100. I think Plus-X Reversal is still an active product, but I'm not sure.

    Reversal films can be processed to a negative, but you may be disappointed with the results. Speed is usually a bit slower (1/2 to 1 stop, possibly), and grain may be a bit larger. Some years ago I got some DuPont movie film that I processed to negatives, and I had problems with blocked highlights. You will need to experiment to find the right film speed and development time (and, maybe, developer).

    Reversal movie films are optimized for reversal processing and are slightly but significantly different from negative films. Movie films also generally have finer grain but somewhat lower sharpness than their still film counterparts.
     
  9. Donald Qualls

    Donald Qualls Member

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    Last time I looked (a couple months ago) Plus-X Reversal, Tri-X Reversal, and Double-X Negative were all still available in 16 mm single perf, a couple different spool and winding options.

    Just one quick thing from the top of the thread -- do NOT put any B&W silver image material into C-41 or E-6; you'll get back blank film, possibly accompanied by a punch in the nose from the guy who has to clean the sloughed emulsion out of the machinery (the emulsion might stay on, but at 100 F, who can say for sure?).

    Also, FWIW, chromogenic films can be reversed, but the only chromogenic B&W that's worth bothering is XP-2 Super; the others all have the orange mask and won't make good slides at all -- to reverse, develop first in common B&W developer (treat it like Tri-X and push one stop); DO NOT FIX. Then expose to light and process through standard C-41 process to yield a dye image positive. If you're actually trying to get quality slides this way, rather than just see what it looks like, you'll probably need to adjust your EI when exposing and likely also fine tune the first development some.
     
  10. SkipA

    SkipA Member

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    7276 is Plus-X reversal. Kodak changed the emulsion a couple of years ago and the new Plus-X stock is called 7265. I just bought 400 feet of 7265 to film test my recently acquired Auricon Pro-600 camera. I wish I could get my hands on 20,000 feet of single perf 16mm 7276 or 7265 for a good price... It is a lovely cine film. There is also a Tri-X reversal, 7278 is the old one, 7266 is the new Tri-X. Here is some general info on the Kodak black and white reversal films. And yes, these are current reversal cine film emulsions that are readily available in Super 8 and 16mm.

    Anyway, I process Plus-X reversal film all the time since that happens to be my favorite b&w cine film. If you expose it at 50 ASA, use the Kodak D-94 / R-9 / D-95 process. If you expose it at 100 ASA, use Kodak D-94A / R-10 / D-95 process. You mix these from bulk chemicals. The formulas and procedures for the current D-94A / R-10 / D-95 are in the Kodak H-24 Processing Modules, Module 15. I can't find the older version of Module 15 that listed D-94 and R-9 formulas, but I'll list them for you in a subsequent post. The main differences are in the first developer and the bleach. The R-9 bleach uses potassium dichromate, and the R-10 bleach is a permanganate type.

    The easiest way to process this film is in the Russian Lomo spiral reel tank, which you can find on Ebay. Or you can usually get one from Olexandr Kalynychenko at Russian cine and photo cameras. There are several different Lomo spiral reel tanks, so make sure it is the one that processes 2x8mm, 2x16mm, or 1x35mm in 50 foot sections. You can process two 50 foot sections of film in about 2 liters of solutions.

    I'll post the D-94 / R-9 formulas for you.
     
  11. SkipA

    SkipA Member

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    Developing Kodak B&W Reversal Film

    The process given by Kodak is for processing movie film at 20C (68F):

    First Developer, 2 min at 20C (68F)
    Wash, 30 seconds (plain water, do NOT use a stop bath)
    Bleach, 50 seconds
    Wash, 30 seconds
    Clearing Bath, 30 seconds
    Wash, 30 seconds
    Reexposure, 800 foot-candle seconds
    Second Developer, 50 seconds
    Wash, 30 seconds
    Fixer, 50 seconds
    Wash, 2 minutes

    Formulas:

    Kodak D-94

    Water, 50 degrees C (125 F) 750 ml
    Kodak Elon (Metol) 0.6 g
    Sodium Sulfite (anhydrous) 50.0 g
    Hydroquinone 20.0 g
    Potassium Bromide (anhydrous) 8.0 g
    (or 7.0 g Sodium Bromide)
    Sodium Thiocyanate (liquid) 9.1 ml
    Sodium Hydroxide 20.0 g
    Water to make 1.0 L

    Kodak Bleach R-9

    Water 1.0 L
    Potassium Dichromate (anhydrous) 9.5 g
    Sulfuric Acid (Concentrated)* 12.0 ml
    * CAUTION: Always add the sulfuric acid to the solution slowly, stirring
    constantly, and never add the solution to the acid; otherwise, the solution
    may boil and splatter the acid, causing serious burns.

    (Note: I substitute 35.0 ml regular automotive battery acid for the 12.0 ml
    concentrated Sulfuric Acid. I've heard that you can substitute 66g Sodium Bisulfate for the Sulfuric Acid.)

    Kodak Clearing Bath CB-2

    Water 750 ml
    Sodium Sulfite (anhydrous) 210.0 g
    Water to make 1.0 L


    Kodak gives a fixer formula in H-24 Module 15, but you can use any fixer. A hardening fixer is recommended for cine film. You can use Dektol 1:3 in place of the D-95 second developer if you want.
     
  12. nick mulder

    nick mulder Member

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    thanks for all the info people - and sorry i havent got replied but my browser crashes all the time - will investigate if i can get these chems easily locally ...

    anyone know of a cheap and cheerful method of actually getting the film though these various chems aside from a bucket painted black??
     
  13. SkipA

    SkipA Member

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    Russian Lomo Sprial reel, as I mentioned before, for lengths greather than six feet and up to 50 feet (actually two lengths of 50 feet at a time).

    For short lengths up to 6 feet, a regular 16mm film processing tank, plastic only. Do not put R-9 or R-10 bleach in any metal container. The 16mm tanks might be hard to find, but they are out there.
     
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  15. nick mulder

    nick mulder Member

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    Sorry these SkipA - my browser is all over the place and I never got to read your post - great info - I'm off to that site now...

    I got 20,000 feet of 7276 for ~ $100US - and could of got more as well, but wanted to test some first and missed out on the rest because of the delay in having to get it processed in Australia at a great cost (100feet @ ~ $45) - and that was processed as neg, with the associated grain increase :sad:

    As i have such a good amount I think it would be worth investing in a propoer dev system to save money and get the grain down (;
     
  16. nick mulder

    nick mulder Member

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    is there anything wrong with the 100ft version ?

    http://www.geocities.com/cinetank/pro-base.htm

    also I should note my stock is single perf but has the mag sound stripe - so its no good for super16, ah well -

    but will the mag stipe be affected by the chems ??
     
  17. SkipA

    SkipA Member

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    The 16/35 x 100Pro tank would be great to have. I'd love to have one. The last time I asked Olexandr about it was back in February of this year. He had only one, it had a big crack in it that he had repaired with epoxy and a metal plate. And he wanted a lot of money for it, although I forget the amount. Email him and ask him. Maybe he has more of them now.

    I don't really know about the mag stripe. I don't think it would be a problem.
     
  18. nick mulder

    nick mulder Member

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    how does one go about doing this with equal exposure to all parts of the film ?

    chemically or actual light ?
     
  19. SkipA

    SkipA Member

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    Actual light. I use the same 100 watt light bulb in a reflector that I use for contact printing, but just about any light will do.

    One lumen falling on one square foot of surface produces an illumination of one foot candle. A box of 60 watt bulbs I have here say they produce 870 lumens. At one foot distance from the film, it would take one second to properly re-expose the film. I think. I just wave my 100 watt light around the film from all sides for a few seconds, and that works fine.
     
  20. nick mulder

    nick mulder Member

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    excellent! sounds like me..

    Pity tho, Olex has no tanks left .... :sad:

    I'm investigating making my own - need a milling machine with a rotating bed and/or a lathe with a fairly zippy operator
     
  21. Claude

    Claude Member

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  22. SkipA

    SkipA Member

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    Ahh. If you are successful making one, please let me know. You'll be milling some sort of plastic, I take it? Remember you can't use the bleaches with metal.
     
  23. SkipA

    SkipA Member

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    Excellent article, Claude. Thank you for pointing it out. I believe I will try that with 8x10 Efke.
     
  24. Claude

    Claude Member

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    Thank you SkipA,
    for sheet films you better use a bleaching bath based on potassium dichromat (9.5 grams of Potassium Dichromate and 12 ml of concentrated Sulfuric Acid, 2 minutes, than 2 minutes clearing)
    With potassium permanganate bleaching you will get irregular results.
    I'm very busy in my work these times and I'll write a second article for sheet films when I'll be less stressed.
    I got good results with PL100 8x10 and TriX 320 with this second bleaching method.
    Regards
    Claude
     
  25. Tom Hoskinson

    Tom Hoskinson Member

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    How about using a piece of black ABS Sewer Pipe as the basis for the tank? I see that the diameter of the Russian reel is 380mm (~ 15 inches). You should be able to get a piece of ABS pipe of the right diameter from a Plumbing Supply Store.
     
  26. nick mulder

    nick mulder Member

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    thanks for the link - I mistakenly listed the film type in the thread title as Tri-X - it is actually Plus-X - but any info is good as it seems the processes are the same