Kodak's statement regarding its B/W film

Discussion in 'Product Availability' started by Changeling1, Feb 10, 2006.

  1. Changeling1

    Changeling1 Member

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    Here's what Kodak says about its film on it's website:

    EXHIBIT YOUR CREATIVITY WITH KODAK PROFESSIONAL BLACK-AND-WHITE FILMS.
    No one helps you achieve your artistic vision like Kodak. That’s why great shooters have insisted upon KODAK PROFESSIONAL Black-and-White Films for decades. Our full range of black-and-white film lets you add power, subtlety, mystery, or reality to your photography and achieve your own distinctive look. After all, you have a special passion for your art, and Kodak is committed to supporting it. See for yourself by experimenting with our films today.

    http://www.kodak.com/global/en/professional/products/blackWhiteIndex.jhtml

    I especially like the "Kodak is committed to supporting it" portion of the statement. Is Kodak NOT to be believed while Fuji IS? My point is that both companies make great products and both companies claim to be committed to analog photography with equally touching and sentimental ad copy. So, shouldn't we send thank you notes to both Fuji and Kodak and not just Fuji as some other threads have suggested?
     
  2. L Gebhardt

    L Gebhardt Subscriber

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    Show your support by buying the products you like. I like some Kodak, Fuji, and Ilford products so I buy them. I'm not one for brand loyalty.
     
  3. Michael Kadillak

    Michael Kadillak Member

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    Leave fear out of the equation and accept the fact that we as photographers (particularly LF and ULF) have more films available to us now than in a very long time and that condition is not going to change anytime soon. Folks that want to drop a ton of money on digital to the nth power have not rendered conventional materials obsolete and will not do so in the foreseable future and that is a very good thing.

    Keep shooting, encourage others to do the same and share your passion with photography to let others participate in this wonderful form of visual expression.

    "The more things change the more they stay the same."

    Cheers!
     
  4. battra92

    battra92 Member

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    Me either. And don't forget about Foma and Efke. :smile:

    I liked how in Pop Photo's March issue they had a big salute to film and basically said, "Work with what works best for you."
     
  5. Digidurst

    Digidurst Subscriber

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    Wait a sec.. didn't they say they were going to discontinue film production? Or was that just b&w paper? Thought I heard something awful about their chems too...
     
  6. Dave Parker

    Dave Parker Inactive

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    THEY didn't say anything, other than about B/W paper...But Kodak didn't say anything about chems or film!

    :D

    Dave
     
  7. Andy K

    Andy K Member

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    It was their moron of a CEO pronouncing 'Film is dead...' which caused all the uproar.
     
  8. roteague

    roteague Member

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    I don't have any problem with Kodak, they just don't make any products that I use on a regular basis - although I am considering trying the Ektachrome VS100 again (now that Velvia 50 is gone).

    But, there is one difference I saw in Fuji's statement that I didn't see in Kodak's - that film is superior to digital for some uses.
     
  9. Dave Parker

    Dave Parker Inactive

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    Robert,

    If you try the E100VS again, shoot it at ISO 80 and process normally, which is what I do and I have been far happier with the saturation and evenness of the exposure.

    Dave
     
  10. David A. Goldfarb

    David A. Goldfarb Moderator Staff Member Moderator

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    There's a very upbeat interview with Colette Scott, Worldwide Manager of the Education Segment of Kodak's Entertainment Imaging Division (does she fit all that on her business card?) about Super-8 film in the Nov/Dec 2005 issue of _Super 8 Today_ (www.super8today.com). They have a full page ad for Vision 2 stock on the back cover of the magazine as well.
     
  11. roteague

    roteague Member

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    Thanks Dave, I'll give that a try. I've got a stock of Velvia 100F to finish off before I order any more film.
     
  12. srs5694

    srs5694 Member

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    Kodak has officially announced that they're out of the B&W paper business. The last I checked, some of their paper products are still in stores, but the pipeline is going dry. Note that this applies only to B&W paper. Kodak is still making color paper, color and B&W film, and color and B&W chemistry.

    Kodak's CEO (or some other person high up in the hierarchy) made a stupid off-the-cuff "film is dead" comment that's been widely reported and discussed, but Kodak has not made any official announcement about an exit from the film business. Perhaps the statement referenced at the top of this thread is an attempt at damage control over this comment.

    There was a recent thread here on APUG about Kodak exiting the photochemistry business, but that was pure speculation/rumor mongering.

    As a side comment, I'll add that Digidurst's comment shows the danger of rumors by customers and of ill-advised comments by company officials. Somebody who's not paying very careful attention can easily get confused about what is and is not happening. (Note that I'm not criticizing Digidurst; nobody can pay full attention to every detail about everything in life.)
     
  13. BradS

    BradS Member

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    Maybe, Kodak's CEO is dead.
     
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  15. Andy K

    Andy K Member

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    He is, but only from the neck up.
     
  16. copake_ham

    copake_ham Inactive

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    Regarding film salses, Kodak is becoming its own worst enemy. Perez's "off the cuff" remarks create a "chilling effect" on consumers who switch to other brands further exacerbating the decline in Kodak's film sales.

    Corporate downward spirals are never pretty to watch - witness GM and Ford...Big Yellow is a very confused organization right now.
     
  17. Steve Anchell

    Steve Anchell Member

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    Eastman and You

    Open Letter to APUG Members

    This is a first for me. I don't like being on the web and I prefer to share my ideas in person with my students. But several events have recently occurred that I find disturbing enough that I feel it is time to share at least some of my thoughts on photography, the future of film, and Eastman. This will offend a lot of people, but it is my opinion based on 36 years of photography, teaching, writing, and observing the industry first hand.

    I'm going to start off by paraphrasing John Sexton who, referring to the lack of RC paper in his darkroom, said, we speak with our pocketbook. I'm going to continue with a statement I have been making for nearly a decade: Kodak is not your friend.

    A few of you may know me as the author of The Darkroom Cookbook, The Film Developing Cookbook, The Variable Contrast Printing Manual, and a teacher of photography, especially darkroom, since 1979.

    In researching and testing material for my books (in particular) I slowly came to the realization that in every single case, film for film, paper for paper, Kodak products were and always have been inferior. Ansel supported Kodak products, as does John Sexton (whom I consider to be one of the finest b/w practitioners working today), but the ugly truth is that both of them were in Eastman's payroll.

    ASIDE: I once asked Ansel why he had been such a big fan of HC-110 and then stopped using it altogether. He told me quite candidly that his first impressions were that it was really good stuff, but after thorough testing he found it wasn't that good after all. However, due to his connection to Eastman he quietly stopped using HC-110 without saying anything against it. In the meantime, many of his students, not as discerning as Ansel, were using HC-110 and swearing by it. The point is, don't always go for what the superstars say.

    Since the mid-eighties I have had a privileged position inside Eastman - a mole so to speak. There have been literally dozens of middle-managers in Research and Marketing, both b/w and color, who would speak with me off the record about new products and directions.

    A full year before Eastman dropped b/w papers I already knew about it. I was sworn to secrecy, as was usually the case. Even so, I tried to let people know in the pages of Camera Arts. I wrote a "round-up" of b/w papers world-wide and ONLY listed one paper for Kodak. The omission of AZO and other papers was intentional. This was the only way I had to warn photographers at the time.

    (Immediately after the article was in print a prominent LF photographer and long-time acquaintance called me on the phone and yelled at me for not mentioning AZO, claiming it would destroy his business AND that Eastman would never, never, never drop AZO from their paper line, not as long as he lived.)

    Whether you want to believe it or not, T-Max film is an inferior product. A good photographer, such as Sexton, can make it work in certain lighting situations, but the entire reason for the development and marketing of T-Max film was because it cost less to make (to Eastman pennies count) and could be sold for more than Tri-X, a better film all around.

    The two people most responsible for developing T-Max were the ones that first confided in me that T-Max was designed specifically to maximize profit, not to provide a quality product. They also told me the reason it was inherently an inferior film. My own testing for The Film Developing Cookbook convinced me as well.

    One thing that almost all my contacts inside Eastman agreed upon was that if Kodak were to divert even a fraction of the money spent on marketing, specifically to convince photographers that Kodak was the best and that Kodak loved you, into improving the quality of their materials they really would be the best in the world.

    Having said that, EVERY DOLLAR YOU SPEND WITH KODAK, EVERY ROLL OF TRI-X YOU BUY, EVERY ROLL OF EKTACHROME, IS ONE LESS DOLLAR FOR ILFORD, EFKE, FUJI, FOMA, FORTE, all of whom are struggling to survive in a shrinking market.

    And that's not the end of it. In the early eighties Eastman received a contract from the U.S. military to develop the first digital camera. Rather than opening a separate division to develop this camera, Eastman diverted funds from R&D on silver and by 1984 had gutted the world's greatest b/w research laboratory, through lay-offs and forced retirement. It was around that time that the CEO of Eastman first pronounced that film was dead and that from that point on all available resources should go into digital development. And it has been that way with Eastman ever since.

    Now, imagine that you are an investor reading the Wall Street Journal. The CEO of Fortune 500 company Eastman Kodak announces that the future is digital. Where are you going to invest your money? Eastman put a stake through the heart of film - intentionally or not - and their own heart as well (Kodak has not made a profit off digital since the beginning - Worldwide sales of film and paper, mainly color, is what keeps them in business).

    Eastman Kodak does not give one good darned (I won't say damned in this forum) about you, about film, about photography, about silver. Fuji and Ilford have valiantly struggled to keep silver alive. And yet I read in this forum comments from photographers "I don't have any brand loyalty..." "I use what is best..." Well you just go ahead and use what is "best." Give your dollars to Eastman while Ilford and Fuji go down the tubes.

    If you ever bother to really, really test the products you will find that the Ilford b/w films and papers are not only better than Kodak, but they always have been. Fuji color products are at least as good, and in my opinion better - though I'm not an expert in color materials.

    I have more to say but will reserve further comment until I see how APUG members respond to this, my first real foray into the world of web controversy.
     
  18. Andy K

    Andy K Member

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    Hi Steve,

    I, for one, would like to hear (read) more.

    Andy.
     
  19. roteague

    roteague Member

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    Interesting ... I wonder what Ron will have to say.

    FWIW, Kodak's B&W products don't interest me, since I mostly shoot Velvia.
     
  20. Daniel Lawton

    Daniel Lawton Member

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    I prefer many Ilford products for B+W but in no way would I label Kodak products as being generally inferior. Granted I hate Tmax but I also dislike Delta films which are a variation of a theme. I love Ilford Warmtone but I feel that standard MGIV pales in comparison to Polymax Fine Art. This is a matter of taste not a matter of inferiority. In terms of quality control and manufacturing to high tolerances, Kodak set the standard so it may be helpful if you could elaborate on your position.
     
  21. Aggie

    Aggie Member

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    Ditto Robert. Ron was one of those R&D people at Kodak. Wonder if he knew in 1984 since he knows and did know the past top people personally. I personaly stopped using all things Kodak when they got rid of verichrome pan. I do use some of their chemistry, but havew been researching other products.
     
  22. jovo

    jovo Membership Council Council

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    Well, sadly, I doubt that any of what you've written will seem very controversial on this site (not because I'd rather there be controversy, but because much of this has long been suspected vis a vis Kodak's attitude, and you've gone a long way toward confirming it.) It's interesting to hear your comments on their products, though...especially Tmax. I've never even been tempted because Delta has always had a better reputation despite cosiderably less fanfare. What is really fascinating is the foreknowledge you've had and your veiled attempts to share it. Good for you! I, for one, welcome your candor and forthright willingness to offer the information you've shared. Thanks!!
     
  23. Steve Anchell

    Steve Anchell Member

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    RE:

    This is what I was afraid of and why I don't like getting involved with web forums. I will not get bogged down in a senseless debate as to whether you feel Kodak is makes a quality product. I will not debate whether Kodak set the standard for quality control (which they did).

    The point I am attempting to make is Kodak is not your friend. Support Kodak, and you help to kill Ilford and Fuji - it's too late for Agfa. Then cry that silver is disappearing.
     
  24. Steve Anchell

    Steve Anchell Member

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    Apologies. The last comment was in response to Daniel Lawton, not to Jovo who posted his response while I was writing mine.
     
  25. kunihiko

    kunihiko Member

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    Hi Steve, Thank you for sharing your thoughts. It must be hard for you to take the position posting a letter like this.
    Umm.. I don't know what can I say. I just wanna hear more from you and others.
     
  26. roteague

    roteague Member

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    I think what you need to realize Steve, is that a thread is like a conversation - everyone has different opinions, and not everyone is responding to the initial post. Relax and don't let it stress you out. You can really glean a lot of information from these type of exchanges.