Large Qontities of Methanol

Discussion in 'Silver Gelatin Based Emulsion Making & Coating' started by wildbillbugman, Aug 17, 2010.

  1. wildbillbugman

    wildbillbugman Member

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    Hello to All,
    While I am not usually overly cautious about the toxic chemicals used by most of us who make emulsions, the use of warmed methanol for coating concerns me. The recipes referenced for subbing of di-acetate for emulsion coating call for methanol. Denice- Is that what you use? Could one not use ethanol? I would rather get drunk than blind , although neither would be my preference.
    Bill:blink:
     
  2. Nicholas Lindan

    Nicholas Lindan Advertiser

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    Methanol has very different solvent properties when compared to Ethanol. For example, methanol is great for removing urethane foam goo, ethanol isn't.

    But, who knows... Methanol is much, much cheaper (and purer, viz denatured ethanol) as an industrial chemical but Everclear may work fine.
     
  3. Photo Engineer

    Photo Engineer Subscriber

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    There are several formulas for subbing of acetate. I would try to find one of those. I don't have any offhand, and it would take me days to find a suitable mixture, if you are willing to wait.

    PE
     
  4. wildbillbugman

    wildbillbugman Member

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    PE,
    I was referring to a specific recipe, on p.187 of Wall's 1929 book. This is specified by Denise on her website Thelightfarm.com. I am hoping that she will chime in here.
    Bill
     
  5. Photo Engineer

    Photo Engineer Subscriber

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    My copy of Wall from 1929 gives no subbing formulas on that page nor anything near that page.

    I have found several formulas in Baker that use Methanol, but I remember one from way back that used acetic acid and amyl alcohol. I could not find it tonight and I'm off on another wild project that will take up some time. Try an e-mail to Denise.

    PE
     
  6. wildbillbugman

    wildbillbugman Member

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    I am sorry PE. But I SWEAR it is there! Lest you all think that I am Crazy, I am referring to the edition of Wall that Kirk has on his website www.keyesphoto.com. Really, its there, it really is. It really,really is there. I know its there. I am in love with Elanor Rigbie. Father McInzy can't have her...............
     
  7. dwross

    dwross Subscriber

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    You're not crazy, Bill! http://thelightfarm.com/Map/BitsAndPieces/16Mar2010/EmulsionBlog.htm (go about 2/3 down).

    This recipe works very, very well. I'm not afraid of the methanol. I stir the mix together right under the intake of my ventilation hood. But, really, the acetone or the acetic acid would probably be more of a concern if I went around breathing deeply of photo chemicals.

    Some more info on the making of, and the working with, handmade acetate film negatives is near the top of my list of new 'stuff' to post on the Light Farm this fall. I hope everyone who's even the least bit interested gives it a try -- dirt cheap and the materials have little chance of disappearing on us. It's my idea of a perfect craft. Easy entry and satisfying right off the bat, but perfecting the nuances is enough of a challenge to hold the interest.
     
  8. wildbillbugman

    wildbillbugman Member

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    Thanks Denise,
    I have decided to try acetate because it will probably be more useful to other people than glass. As for me, my favorite camera,the Devin Colorgraph 5x7 is really designed for glass negatives. And,well, I just love glass!
    I thought that it was not possible for me to become more clumsy than I was before I started working in total darkness. But my night vision monacle leaves much to be desired in the area of depth-perception. Its hard to find the center of a 5x7 glass plate when I am pouring plates. I will leave the details to your imagination
    Bill
     
  9. Kirk Keyes

    Kirk Keyes Member

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    Hey. that's my copy of Wall!

    Bill, I read it as page 188 in Wall's book.

    I have a better copy up there that can be downloaded now at:
    http://www.keyesphoto.com/KDKtech - E. J. Wall - Photographic Emulsions.html
    It's 12.5 Megs in size, but the graphics and text are much better in quality that the previous pdf I had made.

    If you have the previous version I put up there, I highly recommend downloading the new one.

    PS - I love Eleanor Ribgy as well.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 18, 2010
  10. Kirk Keyes

    Kirk Keyes Member

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    Bill - don't worry about the methanol too much. While is it toxic, it's pretty easy to work with. Like Denise said, use good ventilation when working with it. But don't forget to put your cigarette out before working with methanol!

    Side note - Sammy Davis Jr. crashed his car in 1959 on the way to Palm Springs. That's when he lost his eye. I heard he was drunk after drinking Sterno - a mixture of ethanol and methanol... So Bill, don't drink it and drive to Palm Springs!
     
  11. alanrockwood

    alanrockwood Member

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    Methanol is bad stuff, quite toxic. You should minimize your exposure, or better yet avoid it altogether if you can.
     
  12. dwross

    dwross Subscriber

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    The new version looks great. Thanks. I've updated the link from TLF.

    For anyone who's interested in the old literature, there are a number of e-reads here: http://thelightfarm.com/Map/LiteratureList/LiteratureListPart1.htm.

    The one at the top of the page, The Photographic Emulsion, is almost all scanned and posted. It's particularly excellent.
     
  13. markbarendt

    markbarendt Subscriber

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    If you treat it properly and use proper safety equipment methanol is managable.

    I use it in my day job (winter) to thaw the ice out frozen natural gas lines. We use it 5 gallons at a shot.

    It's actually a fuel used in racing here and there. Think of how you might deal with a can of gasoline, that would be similar in how you might deal with methanol.
     
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  15. Photo Engineer

    Photo Engineer Subscriber

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    Gasoline reacts with liver and kidneys whereas methanol reacts with brain and nerves. So, take your pick.

    PE
     
  16. Kirk Keyes

    Kirk Keyes Member

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    You mean get a high-school drop-out to handle it for me? (I live in Oregon where we can't be trusted to pump our own gas. And I don't mind that when it's 100F or 20F outside.)
     
  17. markbarendt

    markbarendt Subscriber

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    Indeed, neither is harmless and care is required. Your point is quite valid.

    The scary thing with either (actually with most risky things) is actually the nuts around us.

    I regularly see mini mart employees step out of the store while I'm filling the gas tank, to light up and smoke, so as not to bother the customers inside; problem is that now they are standing 10 feet from my gas pump that pumping out a cloud of flammable vapor.

    Second hand smoke or possible explosion and fire, take your pick. Fire plus gasoline is bad, we all know this so I tend to get belligerent now when this happens.

    Cell Phones, same issue; static cling on that fancy sweater, same issue. I'm a bit more PC with these issues because people don't know the risks.

    My point here is that most of us still buy gas and fill our lawn mowers from cans without wearing rubber gloves, chemical goggles, and aprons. If you are wearing all that fun stuff, methanol is manageable.
     
  18. jnanian

    jnanian Advertiser

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    yeah

    we have guys that drive the "blue rhino" propane trucks andy capin' a cigarette
    while making deliveries ( where's hank hill ?! ),
    people yapping away on their cell while smoking and pumping gas
    AND people feeding their pooch ( who is on the front dash ) chips ( mouth to mouth ) while DRIVING ..

    nuts that's an understatement !
     
  19. wildbillbugman

    wildbillbugman Member

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    "Blue Rhino"? Isn't that a "strip" club? Volatile indeed. And potentially harmful to ones health?
    Bill
     
  20. Photo Engineer

    Photo Engineer Subscriber

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    I was pouring Methanol from a 4L bottle into a reactor flask when a spark ignited it. A flame about 2M long came out of the bottle along with a deep bass roar. I'm lucky the bottle did not break as it was nearly full.

    The flame went out and I shook for about 10 mins.

    Be careful. Methanol has a low boiling point and can ignite easily.

    PE
     
  21. Hexavalent

    Hexavalent Subscriber

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    I can speak from experience: Do not use meths as bbq starter!
     
  22. Ray Rogers

    Ray Rogers Member

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    Meths as a bbq starter!?
    Yea, that can really kill an appitite.
    :cool:


    Cell Phones and gasoline?
    Whats the issue with cell phones?
    :confused:
     
  23. Photo Engineer

    Photo Engineer Subscriber

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    RF can detonate some items Ray.

    Did you know that Angora and other fuzzy sweaters were banned on pads at Cape Canaveral? During fueling, the high oxygen content on the pad caused O2 to adsorb to a sweater, and the static electricity discharge caused a severe fire? So, they had signs prohibiting sweaters beyond a certain point on pads there.

    PE
     
  24. Ray Rogers

    Ray Rogers Member

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    Did not know that.

    I wonder if Angora rabbits are also a risk?
    Other furry critters?

    Re: RF... Has there been actual cases of this problem with cell phone users?
    Is that the reason we have to turn off all communication devices during take off and landing?
     
  25. Photo Engineer

    Photo Engineer Subscriber

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    When you drive through a construction area in which they may be blasting, you are warned to turn off radios and cell phones. So, there must be a serious question having arisen somewhere. :wink:

    PE
     
  26. bdial

    bdial Subscriber

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    The reasoning behind turning off cell phones and electronics for take off and landing is the theoretical chance of them interfering with the plane's avionics. To be certified for use in an aircraft every electronic component must be tested. Since testing every cell phone/dvd player/walkman/computer/gameboy/etc. isn't practical, they just require all of them to be off.
    The reality is that the avionics are built to be resistant to electronic interference, since there are plenty of uncontrollable sources, and the gadgets used by passengers are unlikely to cause problems. But rules are rules, and they are the rules for good reasons.
    Mythbusters did an piece on this a while back, they found that yes, it's possible, but in practice, on a plane with modern avionics, not likely.