Learn me good: LF shutters and what lenses mount to them

Discussion in 'Large Format Cameras and Accessories' started by Klainmeister, May 23, 2013.

  1. Klainmeister

    Klainmeister Member

    Messages:
    1,492
    Joined:
    Jun 2, 2010
    Location:
    Santa Fe, NM
    Shooter:
    4x5 Format
    Hi all,

    Finally stepping back into LF and have a Zone VI camera in the mail to replace my beat up Graflex. I have two lenses at the moment (looking for a 110-135mm lens, not sure which yet) which are a 90mm f/8 Schneider-Kreuznach Technika and a Schneider 210mm f/5.6 Symnnar-s. They've both been excellent, but since I figure I'll need to replace the lens boards to fit the new camera, it raised some questions regarding shutters, boards, and lenses. I searched and found some info, but maybe need some better google'ing skills.

    Question: the 90mm has a Synchro Compur shutter that I would love to replace, mainly because we had to glue on a release barrel in order to keep it open during composition. I looked online and see some with Copal 0? How do you determine the right shutter size for the threads/size of the elements? Is that standard?

    Question 2: where is the best source of LF lenses and shutters? I've checked KEH and it's alright, but almost nothing with regards to shutters in particular.

    Last, anyone got a good recommendation on some lens boards for the Zone Vi. Sounds like the Linhof and Wista boards fit. 4x4cm?

    Thanks all!!!!

    IMG_20130523_074427_612.jpg
     
  2. Richard S. (rich815)

    Richard S. (rich815) Subscriber

    Messages:
    4,957
    Joined:
    Jan 14, 2003
    Location:
    San Francisco
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
  3. Klainmeister

    Klainmeister Member

    Messages:
    1,492
    Joined:
    Jun 2, 2010
    Location:
    Santa Fe, NM
    Shooter:
    4x5 Format
    Well, yes, thank you. I've gone over to that forum, but seeing that a lot of users on there are on here, I figured why not just ask here and not make a new account.
     
  4. Richard S. (rich815)

    Richard S. (rich815) Subscriber

    Messages:
    4,957
    Joined:
    Jan 14, 2003
    Location:
    San Francisco
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
    It's worth it.
     
  5. TheFlyingCamera

    TheFlyingCamera Membership Council Council

    Messages:
    9,444
    Joined:
    May 24, 2005
    Location:
    Washington DC
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
    For the lensboards (yes, it should take the Linhof/Wista boards, IIRC), try Badger Graphic - they usually have name brand and knockoffs in stock. I'd also call them and ask about the shutters. If memory serves I read something recently that Copal had quit making shutters, so they may not be available new for much longer. I'd try them and the View Camera Store in Arizona.

    http://www.badgergraphic.com/

    http://www.viewcamerastore.com/
     
  6. Klainmeister

    Klainmeister Member

    Messages:
    1,492
    Joined:
    Jun 2, 2010
    Location:
    Santa Fe, NM
    Shooter:
    4x5 Format
    Thanks! I hadn't realized that that camera store is in AZ. Might need to make a trip down there.

    I found a a few Copal 0's out there, but they run about $400, which is worth more than the lens itself. I hate those situations because the lens is quite excellent. I guess I'll leave that for the Graflex and find something else for the Zone VI.
     
  7. E. von Hoegh

    E. von Hoegh Member

    Messages:
    3,925
    Joined:
    Sep 14, 2011
    Location:
    Adirondacks
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
    What is the problem with the existing shutter?
     
  8. Klainmeister

    Klainmeister Member

    Messages:
    1,492
    Joined:
    Jun 2, 2010
    Location:
    Santa Fe, NM
    Shooter:
    4x5 Format
    Nothing, actually. There's no open shutter function nor is there a spot to thread on a shutter release (for a press camera or something?). Therefore the solution we came up with in HS was to glue onto the lensboard a threaded shutter release adapter that hits the shutter arm. Effectively, we thread a locking cable release into that adapter, cock the shutter, open and lock it. Kinda ghetto, but it has worked for about 8 years or so. Now that the new camera doesn't take the same lensboard, I realized I won't be able to use the same technique, unless of course I want to glue it on that one as well.
     
  9. E. von Hoegh

    E. von Hoegh Member

    Messages:
    3,925
    Joined:
    Sep 14, 2011
    Location:
    Adirondacks
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
    I have the same shutter, it has a button that you push toward the rear of the shutter to hold it open, to focus. The button is about midway along the slot the cocking lever moves in. I found it more convenient to use "B" and a locking release as mine is on a recessed board.
    No cable release socket? It must have been broken off or removed, this can be replaced. The 90mm Super Angulon is not a lens for press cameras!

    To replace the shutter, you will have to match the threads and the spacing within a very very small tolerance. New shutter are almost unavailable, so the only source is cannibalising other lenses with all that entails - accurate measuring, CLA for the 'new" 40 year old shutter, aperture scales, etc.

    A Copal "O" will have the same dimensions as a Compur "O", and so on.
     
  10. Jon Shiu

    Jon Shiu Subscriber

    Messages:
    2,814
    Joined:
    Dec 2, 2003
    Location:
    Elk, Califor
    Shooter:
    Plastic Cameras
    Re: Zone VI lens boards, there are different models of camera that have different sized lens boards. If it is the older Wista model, then the Linhof type board will fit. If newer Wisner/Calumet etc. then it would take a wooden board.

    Check your shutter to make sure what size it is before buying a replacement. For example, it might be a 00 size shutter instead of 0. The skgrimes website has measurements.

    Jon
     
  11. smieglitz

    smieglitz Subscriber

    Messages:
    1,941
    Joined:
    Oct 18, 2002
    Location:
    Climax, Michigan
    Shooter:
    Large Format
    Have a look:

    http://www.skgrimes.com/library/used-obsolete-discontinued-shutters/compur

    http://www.skgrimes.com/products/new-copal-shutters/standardcopals

    Wondering if you might be interested in something in the 150mm/165mm/180mm range? I may have some Fujinon 135mm cells that would fit your current or future shutters. I also have some 127mm/135mm lenses and cells that are f/4.7 Tessar designs. They barely cover 4x5 at infinity so no room for movements unless you focus closer. If interested in any, shoot me a pm and let me know what you might be looking for.
     
  12. Ian Grant

    Ian Grant Subscriber

    Messages:
    18,035
    Joined:
    Aug 2, 2004
    Location:
    West Midland
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
    It looks like it's a very early 90mm f8 SA in a Compur #00 and they are small & fiddly, no spare parts available, B but not T so not the fgasteset to set up and use. They were OK for Press cameras like this, the shutter was really made for MF roll film cameras but Schneider used it for some Super Angulons before switching to the better #0 Compurs.

    The options are replace with a #00 Prontor if it fails and can't be repaired or there are adapters for #0 shutters to take #00 fit cells but you'd need to measure the spacings first and correct if necessary. The lens is about 55 years old :D

    Ian
     
  13. Klainmeister

    Klainmeister Member

    Messages:
    1,492
    Joined:
    Jun 2, 2010
    Location:
    Santa Fe, NM
    Shooter:
    4x5 Format
    Wow, interesting info then. So if that's the case, I guess I look into getting a modern somewhat wide angle and leave the 90mm for the graflex, which I have a 6x17 back attached to anyhow. Dang, guess I'm shopping for more boards and lenses than I had originally hoped.

    I'll take a closer look at the shutter tonight when I get outta my jail--err, office! Here's a pic of the mod.
    IMG_20130523_085049_857.jpg
     
  14. Sponsored Ad
  15. TheFlyingCamera

    TheFlyingCamera Membership Council Council

    Messages:
    9,444
    Joined:
    May 24, 2005
    Location:
    Washington DC
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
  16. Ian Grant

    Ian Grant Subscriber

    Messages:
    18,035
    Joined:
    Aug 2, 2004
    Location:
    West Midland
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
    That's definitely a #00 shutter, the 90mm f5.6 SA I have is in a #0 Compur and there's a dust cover/space between the lens barrel and the rimset speed control ring. The 5.6 version has larger elemnts as well.

    Ian
     
  17. Klainmeister

    Klainmeister Member

    Messages:
    1,492
    Joined:
    Jun 2, 2010
    Location:
    Santa Fe, NM
    Shooter:
    4x5 Format
    It was used for backpacking and kept getting broken off, so ya, there ya go. What do you expect from high schoolers with a big camera and no idea how to use it?!

    I think I want a 110mm instead of a 90mm. 90mm is too wide for my flavor.
     
  18. TheFlyingCamera

    TheFlyingCamera Membership Council Council

    Messages:
    9,444
    Joined:
    May 24, 2005
    Location:
    Washington DC
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
    I have a 110 you'd love (but it's not for sale!). Look around for a Goerz American Optical (usually abbreviated to Am.Opt.) Wide-angle Dagor 4 3/8" f8. Light, compact, almost covers whole plate wide open. Mine is in an older Rapax shutter, but they're actually pretty decent if you exercise them regularly. You could probably get one put in a Copal 0 if you must have a modern shutter with it. It is small enough I used to be able to reverse the lensboard and leave it mounted inside my Shen Hao 4x5 when closed up, with no harm to the camera or lens.
     
  19. Klainmeister

    Klainmeister Member

    Messages:
    1,492
    Joined:
    Jun 2, 2010
    Location:
    Santa Fe, NM
    Shooter:
    4x5 Format
    Thanks for those links. Pricey little buggers. Fujinon lenses have my interest
     
  20. Richard S. (rich815)

    Richard S. (rich815) Subscriber

    Messages:
    4,957
    Joined:
    Jan 14, 2003
    Location:
    San Francisco
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
    I love my Fujinons. 90, 135, 180 and a 250. Got them all from forum members at LFF. Don't think I paid more than $275 for any, some much cheaper.
     
  21. Klainmeister

    Klainmeister Member

    Messages:
    1,492
    Joined:
    Jun 2, 2010
    Location:
    Santa Fe, NM
    Shooter:
    4x5 Format
    Well, I am just gonna get a new board for the Schneider 210 I have, but the 90mm Linhof is staying with the Graflex and the 6x17 back. Looking for a Fujinon or Nikkor 125-135mm 5.6 in a Copal 0. I've always liked any Fuji and Nikkor stuff I've used.
     
  22. JPD

    JPD Member

    Messages:
    842
    Joined:
    Mar 24, 2007
    Location:
    Sweden
    Shooter:
    Medium Format
    Some Compur-Rapid/Synchro-Compur shutters made for folders, like the Agfa Record, don't have a cable release socket.
     
  23. Doremus Scudder

    Doremus Scudder Member

    Messages:
    1,275
    Joined:
    Sep 10, 2002
    Location:
    Oregon and Austria
    Shooter:
    4x5 Format
    FWIW, making your own lensboards is not at all difficult if you have a bit of woodworking or metalworking experience. Plus, there are lots of used and after-market boards on eBay and other sites for not very much. FYI, if you are receiving a later model Zone VI camera (the Wisner or Ritter cameras with longer bellows) then it takes a 4x4 inch lensboard.

    As for your 00 shutter... I would likely pick up another lens and keep your present 90mm for your Graphic. It will most probably be cheaper to find a used lens than to buy a shutter, have it overhauled and have your lens adapted to it.

    I like the 90mm, 135mm, 200mm, 300mm kit for starters, if that helps in your lens choice. The spacing is fairly even, with each successive lens being about 150% longer than the preceding.

    Best,

    Doremus


    www.DoremusScudder.com
     
  24. Klainmeister

    Klainmeister Member

    Messages:
    1,492
    Joined:
    Jun 2, 2010
    Location:
    Santa Fe, NM
    Shooter:
    4x5 Format
    Thanks for the help. The camera is sitting here and it's the original Zone VI Tachihara model that takes the Linhof style boards. They're so thin, not sure if I can do that myself. I found a couple for $20, so it seems fair.

    I was offered a 90mm Super Angulon in a Copal 0 from a friend, plus watching a 150mm 5.6 Symmar-s, which would give me 90mm, 150mm, and 210mm all Schneider. Should be a good start methinks.

    IMG_20130525_121930_605.jpg
     
  25. Ian Grant

    Ian Grant Subscriber

    Messages:
    18,035
    Joined:
    Aug 2, 2004
    Location:
    West Midland
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
    I find 90mm, 150mm & 210mm a good working combination, I also have a 65mm that has got me shots where I need something wider than the 90mm. The Rodenstock 150mm f5.6 Sironar-N is a n excellent match to Schneider lenses and you can find Calumet Caltar branded versions of the Symmar & Sironar-N in the US which are often cheaper and only differ in name. The Caltar S-II is a Symmar S and the II-N is the Sironar N

    That's the right sort of price for Linhof style boards.

    Ian
     
  26. ntenny

    ntenny Member

    Messages:
    2,283
    Joined:
    Mar 5, 2008
    Location:
    San Diego, C
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
    To piggyback on the OP's question, I've never really understood how standard the shutter mountings are. If I get a good lens in a bad shutter, can I be basically assured of being able to just unscrew it and stick it on a good example of the same shutter? What about the same size but different brands (Compur 1 vs. Copal 1, or whatever)? What about going from a barrel to a shutter?

    Yes, these are remedial questions, but I'm a pretty remedial-level LF shooter!

    -NT