These are both projection petzvals. That's bad for me, good for you because I don't get to ask the coo coo prices that people are paying for the BIG NAME petzvals on the bay. First is an odd one to me. It's a 12" f8. Little bitty thing. A 12" f4 is struggling to go on a 6X6 lens board, but this little lens is diminutive. It just covered the 8X10 format at infinity with darkened corners, but there. I couldn't bet it to swirl at all. It does however have a gorgeous petzval look. Classic tack sharp point in the center with immediate fall off to lovely out of focus bokeh. The glass is exceptional. Sparkles like brand new. Never seen another quite like it. How about $165 for him.