Life of Concentrated Ansco 130 Stock

Discussion in 'B&W: Film, Paper, Chemistry' started by Rafal Lukawiecki, Nov 12, 2010.

  1. Rafal Lukawiecki

    Rafal Lukawiecki Subscriber

    Messages:
    810
    Joined:
    Feb 23, 2006
    Location:
    Co. Wicklow,
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
    I need to mix spare Ansco 130 into a liquid in order to avoid glycin going bad while it is still in its powder form. To save on storage space I am considering mixing not into the regular stock but by using only 50% of water. Does anyone know if it is a bad idea for any reason? Could the shelf-life of this more concentrated stock be shorter than that of the regular stock?

    Thanks for any advice.

    Rafal
     
  2. juan

    juan Subscriber

    Messages:
    1,748
    Joined:
    May 7, 2003
    Location:
    St. Simons I
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
    First, I've frozen glycin in my freezer in powder form and used it for about three years. I ran out before it stopped working.

    Second, I don't know if all the chemicals will dissolve into only half the water, but if the will, I see no problem with it.
    juan
     
  3. Rafal Lukawiecki

    Rafal Lukawiecki Subscriber

    Messages:
    810
    Joined:
    Feb 23, 2006
    Location:
    Co. Wicklow,
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
    Juan, thanks. They do dissolve in half the water as I've already tested that approach a while back. But at the time I did not keep the concentrate long enough to know if it would keep as well as the more dilute, normal stock solution.

    I'm curious if anyone ever kept a more concentrated 130 stock for a while.
     
  4. Ken Nadvornick

    Ken Nadvornick Member

    Messages:
    5,004
    Joined:
    Mar 18, 2005
    Location:
    Monroe, WA, USA
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
    I have not tried that, nor do I know of anyone who has. However, my experience with long-term storage of the standard stock solution is covered in this post.

    And the point made by 'juan' is an especially good one. If the main issue is "to avoid glycin going bad while it is still in its powder form," then simply storing it frozen could solve that problem without the need to mix and store super-concentrates for long periods before use. This post contains a detailed description of my experience with frozen storage of glycin powder.

    The length of frozen storage by 'juan' appears to even exceed mine, and appears to show similar results.

    Ken
     
  5. Rafal Lukawiecki

    Rafal Lukawiecki Subscriber

    Messages:
    810
    Joined:
    Feb 23, 2006
    Location:
    Co. Wicklow,
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
    Ken, thanks for your pointers about freezing glycin. I appreciate them very much.

    I am still interested in knowing if making a concentrated Ansco 130 stock solution would extend or shorten its lifetime or have any other impact. Are there any chemists around here who could venture a hypothesis? I would be grateful. For example, would the effectively much higher concentration of sulphite, and therefore diffent pH, impact on the other ingredients in the stock?

    Naively, I would assume that since there are a few syrupy stock developers it should be possible, but then again if this had always worked then why wouldn't almost all liquid developers come as syrups?

    Thanks everyone,
    Rafal.
     
  6. jnanian

    jnanian Advertiser Advertiser

    Messages:
    20,235
    Joined:
    Jun 21, 2003
    Location:
    local
    Shooter:
    Multi Format

    why don't you contact the photographer's formulary and ask them ?

    i have never added 1/2 the water, just the full amount to make the stock,
    and i have used some stock that is about a year and a half old with no problems
    ( i buy about 6 gallons at a time, mix it all at once and use it for film and paper ). how much longer than a year were you expecting to need it saved ?
     
  7. PhotoJim

    PhotoJim Member

    Messages:
    2,222
    Joined:
    Oct 9, 2005
    Location:
    Regina, SK,
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
    The standard stock solution definitely lasts over a year, and probably significantly longer; I can echo Ken's experiences. The only issue I have with long-term storage of Ansco 130 is if I store it in a bad jar that leaks air - the solution turns extremely dark brown (it's very obvious). It's nearly opaque in this case. Healthy 130 stock solution will often have a dark colour to it but it looks more like weakish tea than runny chocolate.
     
  8. Rafal Lukawiecki

    Rafal Lukawiecki Subscriber

    Messages:
    810
    Joined:
    Feb 23, 2006
    Location:
    Co. Wicklow,
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
    I actually have contacted them before starting this thread. Sherry from PF told me that they have no data on the longevity of the more concentrated stock.

    I realise that the regular stock has excellent keeping qualities. Since I would like to save on storage space and volume, I am curious if the 50% stock would keep as well, better, or worse...
     
  9. PhotoJim

    PhotoJim Member

    Messages:
    2,222
    Joined:
    Oct 9, 2005
    Location:
    Regina, SK,
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
    I'm not sure anyone has tried it. You can lead the experiment, if you wish!
     
  10. Rafal Lukawiecki

    Rafal Lukawiecki Subscriber

    Messages:
    810
    Joined:
    Feb 23, 2006
    Location:
    Co. Wicklow,
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
    I suppose I will experiment, starting this week, after reposting the question on LFPF... Only 3 x 4l PF130 to waste if worst happenned. I'll make it into 6l of more concentrated stock and will report here as time passes.
     
  11. eclarke

    eclarke Member

    Messages:
    1,972
    Joined:
    Jun 11, 2004
    Location:
    New Berlin,
    Shooter:
    ULarge Format
    I buy 2 pounds of Glycin when I order it and it keeps spectacularly in the freezer, stays very light in color and I can't see any ill effects..EC
     
  12. Gerald C Koch

    Gerald C Koch Member

    Messages:
    6,466
    Joined:
    Jul 12, 2010
    Location:
    Southern USA
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
    Many years ago certain developing agents like glycin came with a small cloth sachet containing potassium bisulfite which acted as an oxygen scavenger in the bottle. This worked quite well, don't know why they don't do it today.
     
  13. Rafal Lukawiecki

    Rafal Lukawiecki Subscriber

    Messages:
    810
    Joined:
    Feb 23, 2006
    Location:
    Co. Wicklow,
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
    Sorry to be digging this up, but would a sachet of sodium sulphite do the same job of being an oxygen scavenger as potassium bisulphite, for the dry glycin? Any risk of a reaction?
     
  14. Mike Wilde

    Mike Wilde Member

    Messages:
    2,933
    Joined:
    Aug 10, 2006
    Location:
    Misissauaga
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
    It is not sceintific, and is more dilute than the question, but I have mixed 130 from scratch, from 2 year old from the freezer glass glycin nitrogen blanketted storage jar.
    I then dilute it 1:2 for use.
    I mix stock solutions and dilute developers I want to keep around with reverse osmosis filtered water that has previously been boiled in a covered stainless stel pot to drive off the dissolved gases.

    I then kept the 1:2 mix of 130 it in a PET plastic jug under the sink in my temperature stable and mostly dark basement darkroom, after the initial use, on perhaps 6-8 8x10's of fb paper.

    I tried it 2 years after the inital mixing at 1:2, and while it was closer to strong coffee colour, as opposed to it starting tea colour, it still devleoped a nice warm toned image on the 4-5 8x10's of fb I was working with.

    I warmed it in the microwave before using it after the 2 year sit to get it above 72F. I find glycin very inactive at 68F.

    It went back into the storage jug. I have not been back to it for a while, but it is still there. I think of it as the energizer rabbit of paper deevlopers.

    I intend to compare it to fresh 130 some day, but have yet to get around to it.
     
  15. nworth

    nworth Subscriber

    Messages:
    2,199
    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2005
    Location:
    Los Alamos,
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
    Ansco 130 has a reputation for long life as a stock solution, but I have had erratic results. In general, my experience is that it lasts only about 4 or 5 months when prepared with fresh glycin. But I have had it go bad in less than a month and also had it last 10 months. There may be some mechanism that causes deterioration aside from air, like some minor contaminant.