Lith Paper

Discussion in 'B&W: Film, Paper, Chemistry' started by robertmgray, Jan 15, 2011.

  1. robertmgray

    robertmgray Member

    Messages:
    21
    Joined:
    Sep 13, 2009
    Shooter:
    4x5 Format
    Hey, I'm getting started with Lith development and I was wondering if any of the new Oriental Seagull papers would lith. Is the new Grade 2 lithable?
     
  2. Slixtiesix

    Slixtiesix Subscriber

    Messages:
    1,010
    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2006
    Shooter:
    Medium Format
    I don´t know about the Oriental papers but Fomatone classig MG is supposed to be THE lith paper from what I´ve read.
     
  3. Dan Henderson

    Dan Henderson Member

    Messages:
    1,890
    Joined:
    Feb 6, 2005
    Location:
    Blue Ridge,
    Shooter:
    4x5 Format
    Tim Rudman's list of papers that are "lithable" does not include Oriental papers. I echo Slixtiesix's recommendation. If you are just starting with lith, don't complicate things by using a paper that may not respond to lith treatment. Begin with a reliable paper like Fomatone Classic. This will help you gain a good foundation of the process from which you can experiment with other papers.
     
  4. Mark Fisher

    Mark Fisher Subscriber

    Messages:
    1,672
    Joined:
    Dec 13, 2003
    Location:
    Chicago
    Shooter:
    Medium Format
    I'll third this....fomatone is by far the easiest to lith. If the Oriental paper is the warmtone version, there is a good chance it will work. I have some old Oriental (maybe 4 or 5 years old) and the warmtone version liths pretty well. The neutral version doesn't work at all. I thought I heard that they changed the warmtone version and it is suspiciously like Fomatone.
     
  5. Travis Nunn

    Travis Nunn Member

    Messages:
    1,602
    Joined:
    Jul 3, 2005
    Location:
    Henrico, Vir
    Shooter:
    Medium Format
    As with all things lith, and as has been reiterated here on APUG many times, you really need to try for yourself. Buy a small pack of the paper and try it. It may lith, but you may not like the way it liths.
     
  6. robertmgray

    robertmgray Member

    Messages:
    21
    Joined:
    Sep 13, 2009
    Shooter:
    4x5 Format
    Thanks everyone, I really appreciate all the input. You guys are right as always, I shouldn't be getting picky with papers before I actually learn the lith process I suppose. I'll start with the fomatone classic 132 like I initially set out for. Just to get a final suggestion from those of you that have experimented with different papers and developers, I'm trying to get more of a black and white image rather than a lot of color; besides the characteristics of the paper is this pretty simple to do by decreasing the dilution of the developer?
     
  7. Dan Henderson

    Dan Henderson Member

    Messages:
    1,890
    Joined:
    Feb 6, 2005
    Location:
    Blue Ridge,
    Shooter:
    4x5 Format
    Fomatone is going to give you the most color of any paper that I know of. Depending on developer dilution it starts off less colorful and gains color as the developer gets more bromide released from earlier development. But I have never had any paper/developer combination produce what I would call "more of a black and white image," save one: Slavich Unibrom paper. Gritty, blacks, pretty neutral highlights and midtones.
     
  8. Mark Fisher

    Mark Fisher Subscriber

    Messages:
    1,672
    Joined:
    Dec 13, 2003
    Location:
    Chicago
    Shooter:
    Medium Format
    There are two ways to go: Fomatone toned with selenium to completion or Slavich Unibrom. Slavich is tougher to work with the the quality control isn't alway there. Here is an example of fomatone with heavy selenium and here is an example of Slavich Unibrom. Just for fun, here is Fomatone with gold toning. Fomatone with fresh developer (little or no old brown) is warm but not all that colorful. Fomatone is pretty amazing in that it can be toned to just about any look except really grainy and gritty.....that is what Slavich is for:smile:
     
  9. mike c

    mike c Subscriber

    Messages:
    2,197
    Joined:
    Jan 5, 2009
    Location:
    Los Angeles
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
    Add Emaks graded paper to that to,it is pretty gritty .
     
  10. robertmgray

    robertmgray Member

    Messages:
    21
    Joined:
    Sep 13, 2009
    Shooter:
    4x5 Format
    Wow, yeah Slavich is pretty gritty, I could find myself using that for certain negatives. Mark, your liths look great by the way. Emaks looking damn gritty too, thanks Mike.

    I think I'll start with the fomatone and maybe try some selenium toning later.
     
  11. 2F/2F

    2F/2F Member

    Messages:
    8,006
    Joined:
    Apr 29, 2008
    Location:
    Los Angeles,
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
    I find that Oriental doesn't work too well. I did not have results I was thrilled with using Emaks either, though it does work. Portriga Rapid is my favorite that I have found so far. You have to track it down, though, as it has not been made for a while. Personally, I find it hard to spend money on brand new paper for lith printing, as the old stuff is so darned cheap (or free), and I generally like the way it looks better anyhow.
     
  12. mike c

    mike c Subscriber

    Messages:
    2,197
    Joined:
    Jan 5, 2009
    Location:
    Los Angeles
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
    2F/2F, I've used Oriental that has to be 20 30 years old and it worked fine for old paper,I'll bring a photo to Tonopah for you to check it out.

    Mike
     
  13. robertmgray

    robertmgray Member

    Messages:
    21
    Joined:
    Sep 13, 2009
    Shooter:
    4x5 Format
    Do you guys find most of your discontinued paper on Ebay?
     
  14. Sponsored Ad
  15. 2F/2F

    2F/2F Member

    Messages:
    8,006
    Joined:
    Apr 29, 2008
    Location:
    Los Angeles,
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
    Hi, Mike. The Oriental I tried is the new VC stuff. I'd love to see yer pic with the old stuff. I think I have a few pieces in the fridge myself.

    I have got all my old paper around town for free or close to it, though if I was tracking down something specific I'd try E-Bay.
     
  16. mike c

    mike c Subscriber

    Messages:
    2,197
    Joined:
    Jan 5, 2009
    Location:
    Los Angeles
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
    Haven't tried the new VC stuff, I have enough of the older paper around for Lith now I'm glad I did not throw it away. Like to use the new paper for traditional printing.
     
  17. sly

    sly Subscriber

    Messages:
    1,454
    Joined:
    Nov 12, 2006
    Location:
    Nanaimo
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
    I've been using Maco Multibrom when I want less colour. I bought a couple of boxes a few years ago. Knowing the Maco/Rollei folks, it probably has a different name now, possibly a different formulation, and no straight answers to be found.
    When I first started lithing I was getting some nice pewter coloured stuff on Agfa MCP RC.
     
  18. robertmgray

    robertmgray Member

    Messages:
    21
    Joined:
    Sep 13, 2009
    Shooter:
    4x5 Format
  19. Bob Carnie

    Bob Carnie Subscriber

    Messages:
    5,212
    Joined:
    Apr 18, 2004
    Location:
    Toronto-Onta
    Shooter:
    Med. Format RF
    Thats the classic look that I so miss, All or most of Anton Corbjin's work printed by the great printer Mike Spry was on this paper.
    I stopped using Oriental after they changed the emulsion, that look is very hard to find with the new papers.
    I tried Slavich 4 and got some great results btw .

     
  20. MVNelson

    MVNelson Member

    Messages:
    5,193
    Joined:
    Sep 11, 2006
    Location:
    North Florid
    Shooter:
    4x5 Format
    beautiful lith print ... I agree that for entry in to lith and the begin learning the vast permeations of the process Foma papers are a great starting place. If you happen across some Fortezo paper it too is wonderful for lith. I am quite hopeful based on Wolfgang Moersch's review of the new paper from Harman/Ilford that we may son have a new "winner" on the way ....
     
  21. Bob Carnie

    Bob Carnie Subscriber

    Messages:
    5,212
    Joined:
    Apr 18, 2004
    Location:
    Toronto-Onta
    Shooter:
    Med. Format RF
    The new paper is an Ilford Warmtone Emulsion on textured stock provided by Hannamuhle, it does lith wonderful, as well solarizes well.
    some people have trouble with Ilford Warmtone, secret is the snatch point , pull early.

     
  22. dfoo

    dfoo Member

    Messages:
    268
    Joined:
    Mar 28, 2008
    Shooter:
    Medium Format
    I bought some LD20 recently, so I'm excited to try my hand at Lith printing! Has anyone tried Kentmere FB VC? Any recommendations? I also have loads of old Portriga, Oriental, Ilford FB... all like the earlier posted mentioned acquired from printers closing their darkrooms.

    I have a whole bunch of Portriga early 8x10 grade 1, 2 and 3 paper that I'd be willing to sell if the price is right.
     
  23. Mark Fisher

    Mark Fisher Subscriber

    Messages:
    1,672
    Joined:
    Dec 13, 2003
    Location:
    Chicago
    Shooter:
    Medium Format
    Kentmere FB VC (neutral) doesn't lith, but the warmtone version does. As a rule of thumb, is it is a warmtone paper, it will lith. If it is a neutral tone, it may or may not. Ilford VC neutral doesn't lith, but Slavich and Fomabrom VC do. I have some ancient Kodak Polycontrast that also seems to lith. Basically, I'd recommend learning on something you know works then branch out. Otherwise you won't know if it is your technique or the paper if you have problems.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 16, 2011
  24. dfoo

    dfoo Member

    Messages:
    268
    Joined:
    Mar 28, 2008
    Shooter:
    Medium Format
  25. Mark Fisher

    Mark Fisher Subscriber

    Messages:
    1,672
    Joined:
    Dec 13, 2003
    Location:
    Chicago
    Shooter:
    Medium Format
  26. 2F/2F

    2F/2F Member

    Messages:
    8,006
    Joined:
    Apr 29, 2008
    Location:
    Los Angeles,
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
    If you want to try lith printing, I'd really suggest trying the Portriga that you have. You may not want to sell it after all.