Loading ordinary BW Film with carbon or palladium

Discussion in 'Alternative Processes' started by Mustafa Umut Sarac, Jul 14, 2011.

  1. Mustafa Umut Sarac

    Mustafa Umut Sarac Member

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    I have few questions ,

    Is it possible to tone the ordinary film with carbon after film development

    or loading the ordinary film after exposure, before development with carbon or palladium

    or load the ordinary film emulsion before exposure and development with carbon or palladium ?

    So , it might be interesting to turn to this to a new process .

    Umut
    Istanbul
     
  2. holmburgers

    holmburgers Member

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    Ok, a few more questions to your questions.

    What exactly do you mean by "tone with carbon" and "load the film..."?

    By carbon are you referring to the use of dichromates and hardening of the gelatin, or specifically the pigment aspect?

    Once you have a piece of developed film, or paper, you can use a dichromate bleach (carbro bleach) that will harden the gelatin that is insitu with the silver. This would allow you to do a number of things with dyes and/or inks, imbibition or bromoil. Donisthorpe used a uranium toner to make dye-matrices from ordinary film, and probably others used similar techniques too.

    Thomas Manly invented "ozobrome", which I think could be used in a similar way; you bleach a film in a dichromate bath of sorts and then apply the pigments.

    Or, you can take a normal film, developed and fixed (non hardening!) and then sensitize that with a dichromate, and expose it to sunlight. The silver image that is already there will act the same as a negative placed on top, and perhaps it can be etched with hot enough water.

    I'm not super confident in these answers of mine, but maybe it'll get your brain running?
     
  3. Mustafa Umut Sarac

    Mustafa Umut Sarac Member

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    Chris ,

    Thank you very much , now , I will think and reread your post and post here whatever I found.

    Yes , very informative post.

    Umut
     
  4. Mustafa Umut Sarac

    Mustafa Umut Sarac Member

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    Chris ,

    All are wonderful suggestions.

    Umut
     
  5. Mustafa Umut Sarac

    Mustafa Umut Sarac Member

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    Is there any easy to find , non poisonous bleach resulting like dichromate ?

    Umut
     
  6. holmburgers

    holmburgers Member

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  7. Mustafa Umut Sarac

    Mustafa Umut Sarac Member

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    Do chrome alum havent got any health side effects ? One day I wanted to write my notes on my notebooks with dollar green ink , I researched the ink composition and found that chrome was used and chrome effects your childs. But I dont know chrome alum have this ?

    Do you know something ?

    And could you please simplify the ozobrome process ? I really did not understand it.

    thank you ,

    Umut
     
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  8. holmburgers

    holmburgers Member

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    To be honest, I don't know about a safer bleach.

    Let me read the Ozobrome description that I posted and I will come back with a concise explanation. For now though, it was the precursor to the carbro process.

    Be back in a jiffy...
     
  9. holmburgers

    holmburgers Member

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    Ok. So my description of the ozobrome process was somewhat flawed. "you then apply the pigments" is incorrect. It's actually just the classic carbro print. You have a b&w print (bromide), and you have a carbon tissue ("pigment plaster"). You soak the tissue in a sensitizing solution, and then bring the two sheets together and let them sit. The sensitizer reacts with the silver image of the bromide and hardens the gelatin in the tissue; this chemical reaction replaces the action of UV in carbon printing.

    Long story short, that doesn't really fit your original interest. :sad:

    There are dye mordanting processes as well, which are unlike carbon or palladium, but can be used with ordinary films. You take a developed film (a positive) and use a certain bleach that turns the silver into some other form; potassium iodide or something?? Not sure right now... Anyways, that is a strong mordant for basic dyes, and they will cling strongly only to the portions that had a silver image. Then you can bleach the silver away; leaving a brilliant dyed image.
     
  10. Gerald C Koch

    Gerald C Koch Member

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    Chromium has several oxidation states, +2, +3, and +6. It is the +6 state found in the dichromate ion that is so poisonous. Potassium chrome alum is not dangerous. Most chemicals used in photography are safe if you don't ingest them
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 14, 2011
  11. Mustafa Umut Sarac

    Mustafa Umut Sarac Member

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    Chris ,

    You are talking about two bleach process at your last post. First applied to positive film , turns some to new chemical and if I am not wrong harden the gelatin.
    You apply dye after all. Dye and new chemicals reacts together and give a brighter color.
    Than again , a newer bleach to remove the silver.

    Questions ,

    Why first bleach does not react with all silver ? As I understood , after first bleach , there would be two compounds remains in emulsion , A- Silver B - Potassium Iodide

    And ,you dye the potassium iodide proportional to silver image.

    And you apply the second bleach and silver gone.

    Why first bleach does not remove the all silver image ?

    Are they different formulas , first and second bleaches ?

    Can I use many dye mixtures to form the color monochrome with react with potassium iodide ?

    After this discussion , We can go in to Technicolor 2 dye process.
    I will reread the patent and report here.

    Umut
     
  12. Mustafa Umut Sarac

    Mustafa Umut Sarac Member

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    Thank you Jerry.
     
  13. holmburgers

    holmburgers Member

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    Ok, perhaps the first "bleach" is really a toner. It changes the metallic silver into another form (not sure, I seem to remember K-Iodide but remember, I am not a chemistry expert). So the silver has been changed to X, and X is a powerful mordant for certain types of dyes. And right, the 2nd bleach removes whatever remains of the silver, and I guess whatever form it exists in??

    The 1st toner does change all the metallic (developed) silver and the 2nd removes that byproduct, leaving the dye. They are different formulas.

    You can easily find a black dye of some sort to make monochrome image in this way.

    I believe this is a fairly accurate description of F.E. Ives dye-mordanting process for Kromskop slides. There is a similar kind of method explained by J.S. Friedman in his dye-toning chapter.

    Is Technicolor 2 similar to the original Kodachrome (Capstaff's 2-color version)?
     
  14. Mustafa Umut Sarac

    Mustafa Umut Sarac Member

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    Yes , they are similar or the same. I could not find anything about red color for two color kodachrome.
    Someone from Kodak told me that green was cyanide compound.
    Than I found two color technicolor patent from 20s and voila , everything is there.
    Look at Silver Gelatin forum and everything is there.

    Umut