Looking for the Kodak Selenium toner formula

Discussion in 'B&W: Film, Paper, Chemistry' started by Ian Grant, Oct 26, 2012.

  1. Ian Grant

    Ian Grant Subscriber

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    As per title I'm trying to find the the pre-KRST Kodak Selenium toner formula. This is listed in my 1940 Kodak Professional Catalogue as Selenium Toner solution, in 20oz, 40oz 80oz and I gallon quantities.

    Above that listing Kodak give the necessary chemicals for making up your own but not a ratio or dilution. The chemicals Ammonium Chloride and Selenium Powder were availble from Kodak as well (specifically for the toner).

    Ian
     
  2. eclarke

    eclarke Member

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    I'd like to have that too. I've been stockpiling KRST, around 40 bottles right now, but am still paranoid..EC
     
  3. Keith Tapscott.

    Keith Tapscott. Member

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    I would also be interested to see a substitute formula.
    Hopefully, it will still be available for a long while before having to resort to making it from scratch.
    It would also be nice to see the return of Kodak Polytoner or a substitute formula for it. Other than that, I'm not much into toning papers.
     
  4. Bob Carnie

    Bob Carnie Subscriber

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    What is the difference between Ilfords selenium toner and the Kodak?
    I have been using the Kodak but am worried about its future.
     
  5. Ian Grant

    Ian Grant Subscriber

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    There's not a lot of difference in practice , they both contain Ammonium Thiosulphate and Sodium Selenite. KRST contains Sodium sulphite and while it's not listed in the Ilford MSDS sheet it may be present.

    Fotospeed Selenium toner is very similar to KRST but then they have ex-Kodak employees.

    The formula was looking for is slightly different, I've just found it in a War-time Kodak Formulary, from Kodak Research, Harrow


    Kodak T55 Selenium Toner
    *














    Sodium Sulphite (anhyd) 150g
    Selenium (powder) 6g
    Ammonium Chloride 190g
    Water to
    1 litre

    Dissolve the sulphite in about 700 ml of hot water, then add the selenium powder and boil until it is completely dissolved. Allow the solution to cool; then add the ammonium chloride and stir until it is dissolved. Finally make up to the required bulk with cold water.

    For use dilute 1 pare of stock solution with 5 parts of water.
    Prints should be fixed and well washed before toning in the above solution for 10 to 15 minutes at 18° C. (65° F.). Finally wash well before drying.

    CHARACTERISTICS AND PURPOSE
    A single-solution toner for chloro-bromide papers and warm-tone lantern slides yielding a variety of tones from brown to red-brown cording to depth and colour of the developed image. Images toned in this bath may be further enriched by subsequent toning in T.52.

    * Available as "Kodak" Selenium Toner In concentrated solution form.

    Ian
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 26, 2012
  6. ic-racer

    ic-racer Member

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    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12041880
     
  7. Ian Grant

    Ian Grant Subscriber

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    Far more people suffer from Selenium Deficiency, I take it you don't use KRST best not to drink water either that can kill you :D

    Ian
     
  8. Ken Nadvornick

    Ken Nadvornick Subscriber

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    Don't want to hijack Ian's thread, but I'd also be interested to hear people's answers to this question. Maybe in a different thread?

    I'm down to my final working liter of KRST. This is the last Kodak product I regularly use. Kodachrome was my second-to-last. I'd like to transition to Ilford's version on my next purchase cycle before my hand is similarly forced and I have to scramble.

    (I'm not a hoarder, preferring to use readily available products so I don't have to worry. Worry takes all the fun out of it for me.)

    Ken
     
  9. gandolfi

    gandolfi Member

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    I would never dare attempting making selenium toner my self!!

    I like th eKodak toner, BUT as dear Moersch has made a really cool one, I am not too worried!!
     
  10. Ian Grant

    Ian Grant Subscriber

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    I make Selenium toner in a fume cupboard that way there's no problems. I've got some Sodium Selenite, enough to make rather a lot of Selenium toner and that doesn't need boiling so is less hazardous.

    We use some far more dangerous chemicals in photography and it's important to take the relevant safety steps which are relatively easy. After all some Wet plate workers still use Cyanide.

    Ian
     
  11. konakoa

    konakoa Member

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    If you're the brave sort, here's a formula directly from Kodak on how to make your own polytoner: http://www.kodak.com/global/plugins/acrobat/en/service/chemicals/CIS268.pdf Personally this isn't something I'd want to do at home--only in a fully equipped chemical lab.

    Here's something more reasonable; combining already prepared commercial selenium and brown toners to make your own polytoner. Note posting #5. http://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?67799-Kodak-Poly-Toner-Equivalent
     
  12. Ian Grant

    Ian Grant Subscriber

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    Your link to the Polytone substitute is scrambled this is the Kodak PDF.

    There's plenty of good formulae for Selenium-Sulphide toners and they are straight forward to make up.

    Ian
     
  13. ic-racer

    ic-racer Member

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    I use krst but stay away from the powder.

    Daily requirement is 55 micrograms per day.
     
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  15. Doremus Scudder

    Doremus Scudder Member

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    Evan,

    My God! Forty bottles of KRST would last me well past the rest of my life! I print a fair amount and don't use a bottle a year. I replenish my toner and keep it. No need to toss it, it works fine, even after almost 10 years. I think a lot of good toner goes to waste, to the detriment of the environment and the photographers' wallets.

    Plus, there's always Ilford and the Freestyle Legacy Pro selenium toners that are similar, if not identical, to KRST.

    Check out this discussion at the LF forum: http://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/showthread.php?87401-Selenium-toner-Kodak-vs-Ilford

    There are others out there too (e.g., Moersch).

    Given the number of selenium toning products still available, unless I had a fume hood and proper ventilation/respirator, I would likely be hesitant to mix my own selenium toner.

    Best,

    Doremus

    www.DoremusScudder.com
     
  16. Mike Crawford

    Mike Crawford Member

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    Kodak Photographic Handbook

    Hello Ian

    Don't know if this is any help, but here's a formaula from the 1949 UK Kodak Handbook with suggested dilutions. Good luck boiling the Selelnium powder! If the jpeg below is not very clear will e mail you a bigger file.

    All the best
    Mike
     

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  17. Ian Grant

    Ian Grant Subscriber

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    Thanks Mike, I have that hand-book, what I'd overlooked was that T-55 was commercially available at one time.

    I also have the equivalent US hand-book of the same era (part of the full set of 4 in their original boxes) and T-55 isn't listed.

    Ian
     
  18. wildbill

    wildbill Member

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    Damn!
    Krst lasts a long time before it's exhausted, are you using it one shot?
    How many do you use a year?
     
  19. Jim Noel

    Jim Noel Member

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    "Dissolve the sulphite in about 700 ml of hot water, then add the selenium powder and boil until it is completely dissolved. Allow the solution to cool; then add the ammonium chloride and stir until it is dissolved. Finally make up to the required bulk with cold water."

    If you don't have a fume hood, do this boiling outdoors and be sure to stand upwind, and wear a respirator. It takes an hour or more to boile this inot solution with occasional stirring, AND THE FUMES ARE EXTREMELY HARMFUL TO YOUR LUNGS.
     
  20. jochen

    jochen Member

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    Hello,
    here is a formulation for a selenium toner very similar to KRST: Please remember that sodiumselenite (Na2SeO3) is very toxic!!

    Water, dist. 560 ml
    Ammoniumthiosulfate, sicc. 270 g
    Sodiumsulfite, sicc. 150 g
    Sodiumselenite 20 g

    In contrast to common photographic formula it is not filled up with water to 1000 ml.

    Source: Kodak MSDS
     
  21. Bob Brockett

    Bob Brockett Member

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    Kodak T55 Selenium Toner exhaustion rate

    Ian,

    I know this thread is rather ancient, but that's never stopped me before! Considering mixing up a batch of this old T55 formula. Can you speak to the exhaustion rate? One of the great things about KRST and imitations is the durability of the formula, often requiring only filtering and a bit of replenishing to get right back in business. Does this old one give up faster? Thanks!

    bb
     
  22. RalphLambrecht

    RalphLambrecht Subscriber

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    You don't want to handle selenium powder if you can avoid it.:smile:
     
  23. RalphLambrecht

    RalphLambrecht Subscriber

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    polysulphide tners are a great alternative as far as lprint longevity is concerned;never cared for the selenium color change anyway:smile:
     
  24. Ian Grant

    Ian Grant Subscriber

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    I've handled far worse on a regular basis, but I use a fum cupboard :D

    Ian
     
  25. Gerald C Koch

    Gerald C Koch Member

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    As Ian has pointed out unless you have a fume cupboard you really should not attempt to make your own selenium toner. Not only is selenium very toxic but once in the body some of it is excreted in the breath and sweat as foul smelling organo-selenium compounds. When I say foul smelling I mean capable of wilting daisies and stupefying small animals at 50 paces. Think of the smell of rotting horseradish.

    That selenium is an essential element for most animals in reality accounts for its toxicity, Since it is associated with metabolism when there is an excess it really screws things up. In a similar circumstance small children have been poisoned by eating too many gummy vitamins that contain iron another essential element. In medicine this phenomenon is called the therapeutic window. Once you exceed the window a useful substance becomes a poison.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 3, 2015
  26. Photo Engineer

    Photo Engineer Subscriber

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    I used a "Hood" as we called "Fume Cupboards" for my Selenium reactions, but it didn't help completely. The results were stupefying as Gerry indicates. I used to ride a bus home while in grad school. One day, after working with Selenium, I got on and heard two ladies exclaim "what is that horrible smell?". It was me after using Se.

    There is no protection from it really. It is tenacious!

    At Kodak, all Selenium work was conducted in a separate building with negative pressure for safety.

    Buy the premixed version if possible or better yet, use a substitute toner.

    PE