M6 + Rolleiflex 2.8 = Mamiya 7II?

Discussion in 'Medium Format Cameras and Accessories' started by jshelly, Apr 18, 2006.

  1. jshelly

    jshelly Member

    Messages:
    98
    Joined:
    Oct 7, 2005
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
    I'm still experimenting with different formats and cameras, and after using an M6 and a Rolleiflex I’ve come to the conclusion that I really enjoy medium format as well as using a rangefinder.

    The issues that I have with both, are that I find the TLR awkward to handle and the reverse directions composing has caused me to miss a shot on more then one occasion. With the Leica the main issue is that it’s almost too small in my hands even though I have small hands, I always feels like I’m going to drop it even with a grip and the fact that it’s 35mm.

    I’m contemplating on possibly selling the Rollei and M6 and purchasing a Mamiya 7II

    My main concern is only the limit of f4 with the Mamiya at this point, since I only use a standard lens (50mm or 80mm for medium). The Rollei can produce some amazing shots with a 3d look that I would hate to miss also.

    Is there anyone that has been in the same boat that could share some info? Has the limitation of f4 ever been an issue? Also, would there be any suggestions to something other then the Mamiya 7II?

    Thanks,
     
  2. david b

    david b Member

    Messages:
    4,031
    Joined:
    Oct 20, 2003
    Location:
    None of your
    Shooter:
    Medium Format
    You already have two very capable cameras. How long have you owned them?

    The Mamiya 7 is an amazing camera with few limitations. A slow lens is not one of them.
     
  3. jshelly

    jshelly Member

    Messages:
    98
    Joined:
    Oct 7, 2005
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
    I've had the M6 about four months and the Rollei about eight months.
     
  4. david b

    david b Member

    Messages:
    4,031
    Joined:
    Oct 20, 2003
    Location:
    None of your
    Shooter:
    Medium Format
    Yeah...spend some more time with them before changing systems.

    The Leica is about as good as it gets in 35mm and the Rollei is the same for medium format.

    My issue with the Mamiya 7, although a neurotic one, is that you can't get all 10 negs on a 8x10 contact sheet. Only 9 will fit. So when I own the Mamiya, I have a separate envelope filled with orphaned negatives. So to me, the Mamiya was a 9 shot camera.
     
  5. jshelly

    jshelly Member

    Messages:
    98
    Joined:
    Oct 7, 2005
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
    Solid advise David,
    I'm always lacking in the patience department.

    Is the Rollei really that good? (It's my first medium format camera)

    Thanks
     
  6. Aggie

    Aggie Member

    Messages:
    4,925
    Joined:
    Jan 1, 2003
    Location:
    So. Utah
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
    David there are negative sleves out there that will hold all 10 shots of the mamiya 7. As for the contact sheet, I just saved the extra one from the sleeves I use, and put them into a new sleeve, and so I have one contact sheet that has only three images on it, no big deal to me.

    The Mamiya 7II with a 43mm lens is about as good as your gonna get in medium format. It outshines even the hassleblad lenses. I find no limitations with it. Like David said, get used to your equipment first. But if you find you really don't like it, rent first and see if you like the Mamiya. I rented first, and there was no turning back for me. It is a awesome camera.
     
  7. df cardwell

    df cardwell Subscriber

    Messages:
    3,341
    Joined:
    Jul 16, 2005
    Location:
    Dearborn,Mic
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
    F/4 is a limitation every day... for me.

    Work with your tools and transform yourself. You have two perfect cameras,
    that complement each other.
     
  8. naturephoto1

    naturephoto1 Subscriber

    Messages:
    1,819
    Joined:
    Mar 26, 2006
    Location:
    Breinigsvill
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
    I have an assortment of equipment including my Leica R series cameras and lenses, Rollei 3.5F Planar, Mamiya 7II, and my Linhof Technikardan 45S. I like the handling of my Rollei TLR. If you have an F model or later Rollei an option for this camera is to purchase the eye level finder. This will add bulk and weight to the camera but will correct the right/left viewfinder issue.

    However, for me, I was never as comfortable with the square format size as I am with the rectangular formats.

    With the the limits of focusing distance, the Rollei and the Mamiya 7II both focus to about 1 meter. Both suffer from some degree of parallax, though the Rollei system seems fairly controlled for many applications.

    The Mamiya 7II (2 14" x 2 3/4") has basically the same proportions as the 4" x 5" or 8" x 10" and is considered the "Ideal format". The Mamiya 7II is a remarkably small light compact film camera that records a very impressive negative or transparency.

    I do not feel that for most applications that you will have issue with an f4.0 lens. In fact, many medium format lenses have an f4.0 aperture. Do not forget that you are focusing with a rangefinder not through the lens. Additionally, you will be able to hand hold the camera considerably longer than an SLR for the same focal length lens (though I recommend using a tripod or support when available for better composition control and aperture selection). For focus you will not need as fast a lens. The camera is very reactive and can be focused much like your M6. Is that a Leica M6 or a Mamiya 6?

    For lens selection for the Mamiya 7II consider both the 65mm and the 80mm lenses if you wish to not need to use the separate viewfinder. The 43mm and the 50mm lenses both require the use of a separate viewfinder for framing (not focusing and are included with these lenses new and generally should be included if purchased used). All the Mamiya 7II lenses perform exceedingly well and are considered to be some of the best performing medium format lenses ever produced.

    Rich
     
  9. avandesande

    avandesande Member

    Messages:
    1,246
    Joined:
    Sep 7, 2002
    Location:
    Tijeras, NM
    Shooter:
    Medium Format
    with the tlr set up your shots and think like you are flying an airplane. once you have a mental trick to orient yourself it will become second nature.
     
  10. photobum

    photobum Member

    Messages:
    421
    Joined:
    May 18, 2003
    Location:
    Northern Vir
    Shooter:
    Large Format
    EAT. Equipment Acquision Trap. God knows I have it. I have a Rollei 3.5f. It's my least used camera. If I could only have one camera it would be the Rollei. Go figure.
     
  11. eddym

    eddym Member

    Messages:
    1,927
    Joined:
    Jan 22, 2006
    Location:
    Puerto Rico
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
    Get a wrist strap for the Leica. I use them with my M6 and M3, and carry my M4-2 on a neck strap. I have been known to shoot with one Leica on each wrist and another around my neck!!

    The wrist strap has a 1/4-20 screw that threads into the tripod hole, so it's quite secure, and you can swing the camera into shooting position very quickly.

    Then again, if you like the Mamiya 7 and can afford it, go for it! :smile:

    --Eddy
     
  12. George Papantoniou

    George Papantoniou Member

    Messages:
    992
    Joined:
    Mar 21, 2005
    Location:
    Athens
    Shooter:
    Medium Format
    I totally agree with Rich, but I have to agree with photobum (I too, own a 2,8 F and if I had to be left with one camera, this would be it... although I prefer the images I make with the 4x5). I think that selling the Rolleiflex and the Leica would be a sin. The Mamiya is a great camera, offering the possibility to do panoramic on 35mm film and some superb lenses, but I would like to own one only if I could afford it WITHOUT losing some of my current equipment. The problem with the Rollei finder will go away, you get used to the image inversion. Give it some time... after a year or two you'll be able to tell whether one of the two cameras is not good for you. After all, the longer you wait, the more the prices will go up, thanks to our Asian friends who bid like crazy on every Rolleiflex and Leica that goes on Ebay...
     
  13. jshelly

    jshelly Member

    Messages:
    98
    Joined:
    Oct 7, 2005
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
    I really appreciate the feedback. Looks like I'll be holding on to the M6 & Rollei for a while.
     
  14. Sponsored Ad
  15. df cardwell

    df cardwell Subscriber

    Messages:
    3,341
    Joined:
    Jul 16, 2005
    Location:
    Dearborn,Mic
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
    One of the COOL things about the Leica is that it opens up a realm of photography that GETS to the same object as doing LF, but in a different way.

    Shoot at f/4 and f/2.8... f/2.0.

    A 50 at f/4 has the same depth of field as a 210 between f/16 and f/22 ( at the same enlargement ). You can get a wealth of information, free of diffraction, handheld, and with hair splitting focus. Even working from a tripod, in the sweet light after sunset, you can work quickly and confidently. With your favorite 100 film.

    It can do a lot of things well, but the Leica's glory is the world of marginal light. Start shooting with the Rollei 20 minutes before sundown, and switch to the Leica. Use the same film, soup them together, and start investing in picture frames.

    :cool:

    .
     
  16. avandesande

    avandesande Member

    Messages:
    1,246
    Joined:
    Sep 7, 2002
    Location:
    Tijeras, NM
    Shooter:
    Medium Format
    Rollieflex is made for the monopod, this is a fantastic combination.
    I love working without a tripod.
     
  17. jshelly

    jshelly Member

    Messages:
    98
    Joined:
    Oct 7, 2005
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
    http://www.apug.org/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=14138&cat=500&ppuser=8305

    I see what you mean, thanks for making me reconsider...
     
  18. df cardwell

    df cardwell Subscriber

    Messages:
    3,341
    Joined:
    Jul 16, 2005
    Location:
    Dearborn,Mic
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
    Yahoo ! What a picture ! Go for it !


    d
     
  19. Allen Friday

    Allen Friday Member

    Messages:
    878
    Joined:
    Mar 30, 2005
    Shooter:
    ULarge Format
    I have a Leica MP and a Mamiya 7II. While I like both cameras, the Mamiya gets much more use. The big, beautiful neg is one reason. The other is that, like you, I find the Leica just too small to fit my hands. Especially with the 50mm lens. I know most people can focus the Leica with ease, but I have trouble with the focus ring. No problem with the 7II.

    I use the 7II as my "go to" travel camera. I have run into problems with the f4 limit on the lense--I like to do night shots when I travel to European cities. I have some very good, hand held shots with my Leica, which I couldn't get with the Mamiya. The Mamiya has a self timer, however. Now I carry a very flimsy tripod and use the self timer on the Mamiya for night shots. I can still get the shots I want and I get better DOF than a hand held shot from the Leica.
     
  20. celluloidpropaganda

    celluloidpropaganda Subscriber

    Messages:
    361
    Joined:
    Jan 12, 2005
    Location:
    N. Texas
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
    Try Tom Abrahamsson's RapidGrip for the Leica, combined with a wrist strap you'll never fear dropping it again.
     
  21. 25asa

    25asa Member

    Messages:
    232
    Joined:
    Nov 30, 2004
    Location:
    South Centra
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
    A Mamiya 7 II body and 43mm lens new will run $4.1K.

    For the same money one can have 108 degrees with a Horseman SW612 with a 45mm Grandagon, Center filter and lens guard. Not much more an you can opt for the even wider 35mm.

    I have found that the viewfinder on the Horseman is also more accurate as to what will show on the negative. Optional back are also available for 6x9. It does lack a rangefinder. (Do you need one shooting that wide?)
     
  22. Trask

    Trask Subscriber

    Messages:
    1,378
    Joined:
    Oct 23, 2005
    Shooter:
    35mm RF
    Here's something else you can try. Get a Rolleiflex or Rolleicord that has a replaceable hood, and find a collapsible Rollei hood that permit both eye-level viewing through the hood AND uses the mirror inside the hood itself to permit eye-level focusing of the image. If you've not see one of these hoods, when erected you can push down the front of the hood and latch it at around a 45 degree angle. Pushing down the front creates a direct-view frame that you can use to aim the camera, and directly below the rear viewing hole of the direct-view frame is a second, magnifying viewer that permits you to focus the image on the groundglass via the reflected image on the latched-down front door of the hood (whew!).

    I just went up to Damascus from Amman last weekend, and after debating about all the various combinations of Leicas, Nikons, Canons, Contaxes, etc I could take, I decided to give it a shot with just my Rolleicord with this style hood (that I pulled from my Rolleiflex). Ok, it's not as quick as a Leica, but I found I can focus quite quickly (you're really focusing on a central detail, not viewing the entire frame through that magnifier), then slide my eye up about one inch to the open-frame finder. There's no more brilliant image than what you get by looking directly as the subject with only air in between. Yes, the framing of the open-frame finder is not parallax corrected, and the image that's recorded on the film is actually a bit wider than what you see in the finder, but that's of little consequence when you're working in 6X6. (Or maybe it's because I was using a hood from a Rolleiflex that has an 80mm lens, while the Rolleicord has a 75mm Xenar.) And boy is that shutter quiet -- a Leica is thunderous in comparison to the soft click of the Synchro Compur.

    So with a Rollei TLR with this hood, you've got a quiet 6X6 camera (admittedly with fixed lens), with eyelevel viewing that correct left/right. Lenses are first rate. And while many people that you're photographing will immediately react when they see the obvious non-native move his hand to his eye with a 35mm camera, if you choose to use the Rollei in its TLR mode, people often won't recognize what you're doing.

    One last thing: my Rolleicord Vb has the EV system built into the shutter speed/aperture interlock, and for the first time I thought to switch my exposure meter to EV mode, and simple transfer the number to the Rollei. Then I can move the EV handle on the lens around to any ss/aperture combination that pleases me. It's much easier than metering in ss/aperture, and it's only taken me 38 years of photography to figure this out! Imagine what new things I'll have figured out by the time I'm 80!
     
  23. fotod69

    fotod69 Member

    Messages:
    23
    Joined:
    Dec 27, 2005
    Location:
    Salt Lake Ci
    Shooter:
    4x5 Format
    I have owned both and have an interesting story. A couple of years ago I was in Italy for about a week or so and took my Mamiya 7 with a 50 mm lens and my Rolleiflex 3.5 F with a Zeiss Planar. The Rollei is 35 years old in excellent condition and the Mamiya was 6 months old. On the trip the shutter in the Mamiya failed. (a $500 repair) The Rollei worked flawlessly. Upon arriving home I printed Cibachromes from the film using my usual masking. I found the contrast in the Mamiya lenses to be so high that there was always a hard edge to the feel of the print while the prints from the Rollei had many more tones and colors to them and were more sensual. The resolution from both cameras were the same. I found the Mamiya to be easy to use and well designed though not quite as fine as the Rolleiflex. I sold the Mamiya after the repair as I can't use equipment that isn't reliable. After more years of working with the Rolleiflex I have found it to one of the finest cameras I used having shot all formats for many years. I don't think there is much of a comparison as the simplicity of the Rolleiflex and fine optics make it my choice.
    Good luck.
    Dennis
     
  24. benjiboy

    benjiboy Subscriber

    Messages:
    8,604
    Joined:
    Apr 18, 2005
    Location:
    U.K.
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
    Prism finder

    You could try to get the prism finder for your Rollei, if you are having problems with the laterally reversed screen image, I use one with my Mamiya TLRs and its fine.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: May 10, 2006
  25. naturephoto1

    naturephoto1 Subscriber

    Messages:
    1,819
    Joined:
    Mar 26, 2006
    Location:
    Breinigsvill
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
    Bentley,

    That is a good point that I brought up on the first page of this thread.

    Rich
     
  26. benjiboy

    benjiboy Subscriber

    Messages:
    8,604
    Joined:
    Apr 18, 2005
    Location:
    U.K.
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
    Sorry Richard , I must have missed that.