Makeshift C-41 developer with hair dye and betadine

Discussion in 'Color: Film, Paper, and Chemistry' started by wartree, Apr 13, 2010.

  1. wartree

    wartree Member

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    There is this topic on flickr; link:

    http://www.flickr.com/photos/27820713@N04/sets/72157623463887609/

    of course colors are not that great, and very faint.
    Nonetheless i didnt understand the process well, can someone explain me better step by step, and tell what's the effect of each chem, the old roll is used for agin i didnt understood, and also the betadine an day light.
    I am thinking of doing this with caffenol(coffee and sodawash only) instead of hair dye, would this work?
     
  2. thisismyname09

    thisismyname09 Member

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    If I'm remembering correctly, paraphenylenediamene (ppd) is the main component in hair dye, and most color developing agents are based on ppd. Ppd itself was used as a very fine grain developer, but it is extremely slow and usually causes a loss of film speed; it will form dyes in color film, but it's far slower than a real color developer.
    Betadine appears to contain iodine. C-41 developer contains some form of iodine, which I think is used to keep the dye layers developing at the proper rate so the colors are accurate. Though that may not be the purpose of betadine in this formula since the colors are obviously not accurate at all.
    I don't think caffeine would form dyes in color film, but it's certainly worth a try. Many things will form a color image, for example, p-aminophenol (the developing agent in agfa rodinal) and phenidone (one of the developing agents in xtol), but any developer other than the "real" one will give you incorrect colors and probably a very faint image.
     
  3. Photo Engineer

    Photo Engineer Subscriber

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    The use of betadine is probably not needed in this case. Its use certainly is not as stated in post #2. Any Iodine would have to be in the developer, during development for the beneficial effect to take place.

    As for PPD, it can cause dye formation but the dyes would be degraded and unstable. Much of the dye formation would go towards making a "bis" coupled compound, and I doubt if that would be a good dye.

    PE
     
  4. Athiril

    Athiril Subscriber

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    Nice to see you on APUG :smile:

    You really need a proper bleach if you're going to be re-developing. This would improve results, as colour is re-developed through whatever has been bleached back, all layers need to be fully bleached back for best and full-colour results. Your first fix is critical for re-development and must be done to absolute completion for both even and fog-free results, not sure what rapid first fix is, I'd also test that out on a strip of undeveloped colour film to see if its doing its job in that time.

    You might find it quicker to improve your colour developer formulation by direct developing in the colour developer and not re-developing, do you know what the pH is? I'd aim for a relatively high pH with some restrainer added.


    First Develop in Rodinal: Forms B&W negative.
    Fix: Removes undeveloped silver halide.
    Bleach: Turns developed silver back into undeveloped silver halide, silver halide layers are now a mask for colour developing.
    Exposure to light: Makes sure silver-halide is fully developable.
    Colour Developer: Forms colour dyes 'as-is' using the silver halide layers as masks essentially
    Bleach: Turns developed silver back to silver halide.
    Fix: Removes remaining silver halide.

    First fix and bleach really need attention and done to completion evenly on all layers for a good colour image, if you get those right the rest will go smoothly. (example http://www.flickr.com/photos/athiril/4162208476/)

    Otherwise I'd suggest going straight in the colour developer and try refinining the formula.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 13, 2010
  5. ntenny

    ntenny Member

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    I've seen C-41 films that had been developed in Caffenol. It doesn't form dyes, just a silver image.

    -NT
     
  6. wartree

    wartree Member

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    thanks all

    @tenny i am talking about developing c-41 and being able to get colors.

    @athiril, thanks for the help, btw do i know you ?
    I am trying to develope a color processing method with only grocery store or readily available chemicals.

    But the more i research the more i see it is getting a bit difficult.
     
  7. Athiril

    Athiril Subscriber

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    Assumed you were Martie Bell on flickr, whom I've talked to on flickr a few times.

    Sticking with ppd sources would be your best bet then, I've seen people here talk about adding hydrogen peroxide to colour developer for more contrast (which is something I need to ask about actually, as it could be very useful for me). I've also seen it referenced as a a colour forming developer on its own which I didnt understand, or maybe I misunderstood the what was being said.

    You can make your own good bleach, but I think using a commercial colour bleach would solve most of your problems, and would help isolate any problems down to the developer first, as well as giving 6 agitations divided into your developing time at least.
     
  8. Photo Engineer

    Photo Engineer Subscriber

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    Hydrogen Peroxide will not form dyes on its own. It will boost the color forming activity of any other color developer. It may cause crossver though and the developer does not last long.

    PE
     
  9. Athiril

    Athiril Subscriber

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    Ah. So then the result is more colour dye formed per x amount of silver developed?
     
  10. Photo Engineer

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    Yes.

    PE
     
  11. neelin

    neelin Member

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    I can hear the gears grinding from here. E6 replenisher B turbocharged with H202.
     
  12. Photo Engineer

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    Does not work in a reversal process.

    This is what is called Heterogeneous Catalysis. It creates a load of dye from all Silver metal in the coating. As a result, all Silver in an E6 film gets to form dye and you get black film.

    PE
     
  13. Fredrik Sandstrom

    Fredrik Sandstrom Member

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    Well, what if you bleach out the unwanted silver (as in B&W reversal processing) before the color developing step? :smile:
     
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  15. Photo Engineer

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    AFAIK, it will work then, but lengthens the process considerably. I have no idea OTOMH what the Dichromate/Sulfuric Acid bleach will do to the couplers either.

    PE
     
  16. Athiril

    Athiril Subscriber

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    I've tried this with a Permanganate bleach (not game to play with Dichromate), it just did a bunch of weird stuff to the film, kind of like when motor oil separates in rainbows, I think I may have done it too strong/too long though, I only tried it once.
     
  17. brucemuir

    brucemuir Member

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    ^ is Dichromate really any worse than most of the stuff (Pyro etc) we play with?
     
  18. Athiril

    Athiril Subscriber

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    MSDS says a lot of bad things about it for human health as opposed to environmentally bad or not, I havent used Pyro before either.
     
  19. wartree

    wartree Member

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    so in summary what is the main role of iodine or betadine in the process?
     
  20. Photo Engineer

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    I myself have no idea.

    PE
     
  21. Athiril

    Athiril Subscriber

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    It's being substituted for the bleach step in colour neg re-development.

    Says so right on the link you gave in the opening post on the guy's description of it:

    http://www.flickr.com/photos/27820713@N04/sets/72157623463887609/
    "I used the Betadine because I read that Iodine is a halogen and is sometimes used as a reducer. I didn't have access to C-41 bleach."

    As you can see from his results, it doesnt function as a proper bleach, or would take more of it/longer to do a full bleach, also problems with his colour developer too, he may also have had insufficient fixing, if its not done to absolute completion you'll get all sorts of this problem with re-development.

    This is what you get with a proper bleach (and colour developer I suppose) using the same general process
    http://www.flickr.com/photos/athiril/4162208476/
    [​IMG]
     
  22. Photo Engineer

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    Iodine is an oxidant. As such it could function as a bleach and form an Iodide salt of Silver metal. However, betadine is rendered very weak for application to human skin. I have never heard of it being used as a successful bleach.

    I suspect no, or very little bleaching is taking place in spite of the post. After all, there is no proof one way or the other as the post lacks any reference. OTOH, the Betadine may be oxidizing leuco dye which might be otherwise colorless. IDK. All speculation until all of the checks and balances are properly presented.

    This was a single stimulus experiment which gives us an open ended result from which no conclusion can be drawn. Please remember that. I stand in bewildered awe at the number of people who accept a statement with no proof one way or another in this regard.

    PE
     
  23. Aurum

    Aurum Member

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    I don't wish to rain on anyones parade, but I will hint that gloves come with hair dye for a reason. Paraphenylene Diamine (PPD) although quite safe can cause sensitisation of the skin. If you do get sensitised, watch out as you can get quite a reaction when re-exposed, and if you've ever dyed your hair and had irritation.....

    I'd also suggest wearing gloves anyway, as the stuff stinks and will quite happily stain your skin, and especially your nails
     
  24. Photo Engineer

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    PPD also gives very poor dyes both for hue and stability in addition to being the most "unpleasant" for use by humans due to its tendency to cause dermatitis.

    PE
     
  25. Pickles

    Pickles Member

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    Hi All, Neelin found some info on using Iodine.

    "Here is an interesting tidbit from:
    "The Ilford Manual of Photography", Edited by Alan Horder, 5th ed. 1958. Appendix 12 (p659)

    Ilford IR-4 Iodine Reducer
    For local or general reduction of prints

    STOCK SOLUTION
    16g Potassium Iodide
    4g Iodine
    1l Water

    WORKING STRENGTH
    For use, dilute 1 part of stock solution with 19 parts water. After reduction, rinse and re-fix in a 20% plain hypo bath. Wash the print thoroughly before drying."

    So it has been used as a reducer in the past at least.

    Don't mean to be a buttinski, and I freely admit that I did fail chemistry. As far as the experiment goes, it was just that, an experiment.

    After soaking in the Betadine 15-20 minutes, the film goes pink and a little paler at the edges. I don't know if it's the Iodine causing it or another ingredient.

    I had been reading the instructions at the Latensification group on Flickr and saw that the guys were using rehal bleach. I didn't have any and I'm on a tight budget. I had the Betadine on hand and decided to try it after reading about halogens.

    The best results I've got so far with the hair dye and Betadine was using Fomadon LQN (phenidone-hydroquinone) as the first dev. Here are a couple of examples.

    http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2687/4411717939_9ac35ac61b.jpg

    http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4044/4410037149_5bd55dc0ce.jpg

    And yes I agree, use gloves and proper ventilation.
     
  26. Rodex

    Rodex Member

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    You could always try out stuff. Yes there is the risk that you mess up a roll of film, but it could come out great with cool colors, weird contrast etc. Experimenting is awesome.