Metol-Glycin two bath experiment

Discussion in 'B&W: Film, Paper, Chemistry' started by Relayer, Sep 13, 2011.

  1. Relayer

    Relayer Member

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    Hello

    Here is some results of my experiment. I'm starting from simple formula:

    Bath A:
    Sodium sulfite 60g
    Glycin 7g
    Water 1l

    Bath B (one shot):
    Potassium carbonate 10g
    Water 1l

    developing time 5+5min. very tiny image, loss more than 2 stops. so I was modify formula and add some amount of metol:


    Bath A:
    Sodium sulfite 60g
    Glycin 7g
    Metol 2g
    Water 1l
    pH 7.5(!)

    Bath B - same

    this variant work, but loss 1 stop and give me negatives with very low gamma (about 0.3). max density is low (zone 5 - 0.4, zone 8 - 0.75). this formula can't make density more than 1.6 over fog+base.
    next step - increase amount of metol:


    Bath A:
    Sodium sulfite 60g
    Glycin 7g
    Metol 7g
    Sodium carbonate 7g
    Water 1l
    pH 8

    Bath B - same

    reason of adding 7g of sodium carbone is very low pH 7.2 without it. developing Ilford HP5+ 400@400 3+5min. negatives look very nice. max density limited to 1..1.1 over B+F (zones 11..12). grain is fine. but sharpness is open question. follow is scan 2400dpi without any processing (only adjust min/max/gray levels) and some crops

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    what do you think about this?
     
  2. Alan Johnson

    Alan Johnson Subscriber

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    The reason why glycin does not work is possibly because metol is much more active.
    I have taken the attached approximation from "The Theory of the Photographic Process" Mees & James p361.It show the density obtained with metol and glycin after equal times of development.
     

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  3. michael_r

    michael_r Subscriber

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    Seems like what you're coming up with is something similar to FX2 (Metol-Glycin-Carbonate), but with higher sulfite so reduced acutance and finer grain.
     
  4. Relayer

    Relayer Member

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    I think that metol and glycin is superadditive. I found very interesting patent US2164280 by Lowe from far 1935. He describe next formula

    Metol 8g
    Glycin 8g
    Sodium sulfite 100g
    Ammonium chloride 5g
    Water 1l

    He state that pH 7.4 is preferable! Also he note that 2nd developer agent must have "low production potencial".
     
  5. CBG

    CBG Member

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    I don't recall seeing any reference stating metol and glycin are superadditive. Does anyone have a definitive source on that? I have seen references stating that Glycin and phenidone are superadditive, just not metol/glycin.

    Regardless, the final mix seems like a D-23 variant, and looks like it would work fine as a two bath. I wonder if it would act nearly the same with the glycin entirely omitted.
     
  6. Gerald C Koch

    Gerald C Koch Member

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    No, they are not superadditive. According to Mason, the primary developing agent is always one of the nitrogenous agents (Metol, Phenidone are examples) and the regenerating agent is usually one of the phenolic compounds (hydroquinone, catechol, ...). Since both Metol and Glycin are in the first group there is no superadditivity.
     
  7. Gerald C Koch

    Gerald C Koch Member

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    Yes, in a Metol/Glycin developer the faster acting Metol will do most of the developing. A developer based on only Metol and Glycin is really not the best combination of developing agents.
     
  8. michael_r

    michael_r Subscriber

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    Crawley forumulated FX2 on Metol and Glycin though. It's an excellent developer. Not sure what his reasoning was for combining Metol and Glycin.
     
  9. Alan Johnson

    Alan Johnson Subscriber

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    Crawley introduced FX-2 in BJP Jan 6 1961. He did not give much explanation but here's a quote:

    "Earlier in this paper the old method of producing sharp negatives for lantern slide making-glycin stand development-was described......On modern slow and medium speed films,glycin with threshold energy supplemented by metol will give a high standard of sharpness and definition,but not marked adjacency effects in the strict definition of raised edge contrast.Such a metol-glycin developer is FX-2,which may be used,diluted, as a stand developer"

    He did not actually state it but adjacency effects can be obtained by reduced agitation.
     
  10. michael_r

    michael_r Subscriber

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    I've read (in the Cookbook for example) that FX-2 makes a good developer for reduced agitation techniques. Perhaps Crawley's line of reasoning with Metol-Glycin included the reputation Glycin has for being resistant to mottle and streaking.
     
  11. Alan Johnson

    Alan Johnson Subscriber

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    Crawley also notes the metol only FX-1 is not as good as the metol-glycin FX-2 in some respects:
    "FX-2 gives a less evened-up picture-not so engraving like-with better retention of faint contrasts,and is also to be used as a stand developer;grain is a little finer....with no real fall off in sharpness and definition..."
     
  12. Alan Johnson

    Alan Johnson Subscriber

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    The variation of 7g glycin and 2g metol pH 7.5 might give more speed if there was some development in the first bath,eg increase the pH to activate the glycin.It has roughly the same ratio of glycin to metol as FX-2.
     
  13. eclarke

    eclarke Member

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    Germain...

    750cc water
    7g metol
    70g sodium sulfite
    7g paraphenylenediamine
    7g glycin
    water to 1 liter

    Use stock to develop film.

    Some ridicule this formula and point to the Edwal formulae but this one really works...
     
  14. Relayer

    Relayer Member

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    oh. you right - metol and glycin isn't superadditive. but still open question why Lowe mix metol with glycin at pH 7.4? from prev posted here graph glycin can't working at this pH!

    this other way and I think that its not for two bath. may be for some stock dev like 7g glycin + 2g metol + kodalk + 30-50g sulfite
    now I'm more interesting use glycin in superadditive combination. from theory must be additive:
    1) glycin+pyrogallol
    2) glycin+ascorbic acid
    3) glycin+pyrocatechin
    4) and of course glycin+hydroquinone
    maybe (2) and (3) will be interesting at pH 9-9.5 (TEA/Kodalk).

    glycin+phenidone isn't additive (from theory). but in russian community well known "phenyglin" formula as the best choice for push more than one stops:

    Sodium Sulphite 90 grams
    Sodium Carbonate 2 grams
    Borax 2 grams
    Glycin 5 grams
    Phenidone 0.2 gram
    Water 1000 ml

    I found reference that this formula really from Ilford, but haven't name
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 13, 2011
  15. Relayer

    Relayer Member

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    wow! Anchell in "The darkroom cookbook" state that phenidone+glycin is superadditive (see p.47)
     
  16. Ian Grant

    Ian Grant Subscriber

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    It was the basis of one of Ilfords developers, Ilfosol, but there's poor keeping qualities.

    Ian
     
  17. Relayer

    Relayer Member

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    Ian, see patent US3778267 - modified POTA developer with glycin. same state that phenidon+glycin make superadditivity combination
    I haven't Mason, but found reference that:
    pls check this statement if possible
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 15, 2011
  18. jnanian

    jnanian Advertiser Advertiser

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    relayer

    have you tried your glycin processed with it at 72ºF ( 22.2ºC )
    you might find that it works better at warmer temps.

    john
     
  19. Relayer

    Relayer Member

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    I think that high temperature for bw processing isn't good idea. next step in 2bath experiment maybe phenidon+glycin "true 2bath" (no developing in bath A)
     
  20. jnanian

    jnanian Advertiser Advertiser

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    whatever works for you ...

    i've used ansco 130 or its evil twin for film off and on since the mid 1990s
    always at 72F ... never had trouble ..

    ( 72 really isn't a high temperature ... )

    good luck !
     
  21. Relayer

    Relayer Member

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    in my experiment I use temp in range 22-23C - this is my room temperature.
     
  22. pgomena

    pgomena Member

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    I can't tell you why FX-2 works, only that it does. I actually have used Photographer's Formulary TFX-2, their proprietary variant, and it gives outstanding sharpness with reduced agitation. (One agitation cycle each 3 minutes.) As a stand developer, I've had it produce edge effects with PanF+ that were just too much. It's amazing stuff that I'd like to fine-tune. It is a bit expensive, and it has a limited (6-month) shelf life. I have no idea how it would perform as a two-bath developer. The glycin is supposedly slow-acting and may not have sufficient time to produce good results in a divided development scheme.

    Peter Gomena

    Peter Gomena
     
  23. eclarke

    eclarke Member

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    Yep, Glycin likes a little temp...:smile: