Model recompense

Discussion in 'Ethics and Philosophy' started by George Papantoniou, Apr 1, 2007.

  1. George Papantoniou

    George Papantoniou Member

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    I finally (after months of unrewarded searching) found someone that has agreeded to pose for the nudes I wanted to do (and have borrowed my cousin Ole's plate holders for) on early 20th century glass plates.

    It's a girl who has done some semi-amateur modelling and has the physical appearance that I was seeking (almost)... after what I have seen in a few examples she has in her book.

    The thing is, she does not really know how much she should get paid for this job (never worked for an artistic project) and I am not sure how much I should pay for her work.

    So, I am asking the ones who have done this and the ones who are frequently doing it (photographing models for nude artistic photography): how much do you pay for a 4-hour sitting to a model ?

    It is evident that the pictures will not be used for commercial purposes, except in the context of an artistic commercial exchange (selling of prints). I also have the intention (and have told her so) to offer her a series of prints (numbered, hand printed on archival materials - silver or alt-process). I also have the intention to use the same girl some other time too, for different projects and I have told her so, so she can understand that this - professional - relationship can be a lasting one (if everything goes well with the first shooting).

    If you tell me how much you pay for this kind of job, please state the country where you live because I will have to convert the amount to the Greek standards (the price of services in different countries varies depending on the mean salary etc etc)...
     
  2. gr82bart

    gr82bart Member

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    Hi George,

    First, if she has a nude rate than I would pay her rate since you sought her ought and it is her look that you desire in your images. Here in the US, verified experienced nude models get anywhere from $100-150 per hour. (In Canada the rate is substantially lower at around $50-100 CAD per hour) These rates are highly variable - her look, her experience, type of project, your images as value to her portfolio, etc... contribute to the rate.

    Now that being said, you could try to negotiate a "time for print/CD" trade, but I don't know the model and how you found her. Generally I have provided a few images on a CD (usually 4-8 for a 4 hour shoot) and only files for the web. I scan them hi-res and convert them to web quality only after I PS them. Additionally, I've given her 2-4 prints for her portfolio. No matter what, I always pay for her travel, pay for the MUA and have food/drink during the shoot.

    Plus I'd give her usage unrestricted rights. Here in the US, many models want the images to use for magazine submissions, contest and the like. It's a pain the ass for her to call each time and the fact is the models never ask permission anyway, so why play a charade and just give outright usage rights right off the bat.

    You should get a unrestricted release.

    Regards, Art.
     
  3. Allen Friday

    Allen Friday Member

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    How much should you pay? It depends on a lot of factors. I have done quite a few nude shoots and paid using TFP "Time For Prints", where the model poses in exchange for a specified number of finished prints from the session. A variation on this is TFCD, "Time For CD" where the images are provided to the model on a CD or DVD.

    I have also paid models. I actually prefer to pay a model with money instead of prints because once the shoot is over, my obligations to the model are over. As an aside, I generally will still give them a few prints, even though I am not required to.

    The going rate for experienced models in the rural midwest USA is between $50 and $75 an hour for a four hour shoot. Some very experienced models charge up to $150 an hour, but I have never paid that much. I live 100 km from the nearest city of any size, so I will normally pay $25 an hour for travel expenses.

    I generally pay a little bit above the norm for a model that I want to work with several times. They appreciate the extra money and are willing to work around their schedules to accomodate me.

    What do models with similar experience to the one you are hiring charge in your area? That seems like a good place to start.

    I also generally provide lunch or dinner and sodas for the models. They go get the meal while I change film in the holders.

    I use a general release, which I have modified slightly. I added a paragraph which actually limits my use of the photos, but which the models really like. I state that the photos are intended for private sales, galleries, exhibitions, fine art magazine an books and are not appropriate for and will not be used for adult/pornographic websites or magazines. I also make it clear to the models what type of photographs I will be taking and what type I will not be taking. Many models will pose for nudes, but don't want to do pornography. The line between nudes and pornography is often fuzzy, so I discuss the limits with the model before we shoot. I also tell the model that if she is ever uncomfortable about a pose, she should say something and we will discuss it.

    I work with most models more than once. By being up front, honest and professional with them, they are very willing to pose several times. I also find that I get my best images from later sessions, once we have established a good working relatioship and are relaxed working together.
     
  4. Roger Hicks

    Roger Hicks Member

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    Dear Allen,

    Thanks for a thoughtful, reasoned and experienced analysis.

    Cheers,

    R.
     
  5. George Papantoniou

    George Papantoniou Member

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    Art and Allen, thank you for your educational responses... here in Greece the model release is not so frequently used, although I'll do it because I want to be on the safe side.

    Is there anyone in a European country that can chime in with additional info and some Euro model rates ? I mean, I can convert US or CAN $ to euros, but the price paid for services is so different on the two sides of the ocean...
     
  6. Allen Friday

    Allen Friday Member

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    You might look at modeling web sites to get an idea of model rates in Europe. I use Model Mayhem and Onemodelplace here in the US. I just checked and both list models in Greece. Check both the model listings and photographer listings to see if any provide hourly rates. Just be aware that most models who list their rates in their ports are normally on the high side.

    There are probably Europe specific sites as well.
     
  7. TheFlyingCamera

    TheFlyingCamera Membership Council

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    Frankly, unless the model explicitly requests a fee, I would try and offer a TFP/TFCD deal first. Most nude work is HIGHLY speculative on your part - nudes are a tough sell in the marketplace, unless they are going to a publisher of other than faultless repute (porn mag). You are likely to spend a fair chunk of time shooting, souping and printing these photos, and go a much longer stretch of time trying to sell them before you ever recoup a penny on your investment. The worst that can happen if you offer a TFP deal is that she says "no". I usually make it a combination free lunch/cash gratuity ($50 or so)/TFP deal, and most folks are happy with that. I also tend to use amateur models, so most of them are quite happy to accept prints and food. Another good reason for working with amateurs - they often don't have preconceived ideas about how to pose, so you can direct them better.
     
  8. Roger Hicks

    Roger Hicks Member

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    Sublimely elegant phraseology!

    Cheers,

    R.
     
  9. arigram

    arigram Member

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    Hey George, senda photo of her my way. If I like her, I might think about borrowing her...
     
  10. haris

    haris Guest

    I remember German Color-Foto magazine had on theire classified pages small ads for modeling, and you can see there how much models charge for posing. Also same types of ads were in British Practical Photography magazine. I belive Color-Foto is still alive, I am not sure for Practical Photography. As I can remember in Color-Foto models charged about 50-100 EURO per hour just for posing and even more if model is someone like former page 3/Playboy playmate model and like that.

    Then, there are ads where models also, with herself, provide studio, lighting, and even camera, and also person who assists if photographer is beginner. Those are practically models agencies (not fashion models agencies, don't confuse those two type of models). Prices for that kind of service started about 300 EURO for hour or two or even for 4 hours (it was long time ago, not sure if remember correctly). So, if you can get some issue of Color-Foto (best if you can find issues about 3-5 years old and older, I belive in recent years I didn't see those ads), that will give you approximate prices for nude posing in Germany for example.

    In British magazines same amount (50 to 300) but not EUROS, they charged in GBP, so in britain prices are much higher than in Germany.

    I would pay to my model atleast standard average daily sallary in my country, but usually I would double that.

    For example, if average daily sallary in Greece is let say 15 EUROS, pay her 30EUROS, give her few prints (let say 5) of hers choice, and make honest and fair agreement (signed model release) with wihch you and she will be happy. Also, if you manage to sell prints, offer her 10% from every print you sell.

    Of course, you provide food and drink (refreshment, not her to get drunk :smile:), and you can pay her expences of hers traveling to place of photographing, she should provide make up and hair style (if you need particular make up or hair style).

    My first model for nude photography posed for free, she got all prints she wanted (10 prints), I provided food and drink, she traveled by hers expences.

    For example, here is one German web site with models: flashmodels.de You need to know German language... There you can ask model you like how much she charge for nude posing, and use that as starting point. Check set-cards of models, not every one is ready for nude posing, it is written what model do what kind of posing

    P. S. I talk so much about situation in Germany because Germany is "reference point" for most Europeans, especially East and South Europeans...
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 2, 2007
  11. gr82bart

    gr82bart Member

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    LMAO! This was too funny, Scott. I nearly choked.

    Regards, Art.
     
  12. George Papantoniou

    George Papantoniou Member

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    Thank you for the sound advice, Scott... the problem here in Greece is that because of the idiotic morals of the locals, nude posing for artistic work (photography especially) is generaly considered as something done by people who are "easy", "Promiscuous", or just "sluts" (for women)... most people think that female models are really Call-Girls that use the modelling label just for a cover for their true profession. This sounds ridiculous, I know, but this is how things are down here. The TV and some stupid journalists have helped this belief to get established in the collective consciousness (showing moronic reportages about model agencies who act also as brothels or something).

    The result is that almost noone will be willing to do that as a favour for a friend and there are very few amateur models... most of the pro models working for agencies will refuse to do nude work and the few who will do it will charge a fortune for it.
    I am not hoping that I'll sell the prints (I am not doing this in order to earn money) so I know I will finance this operation...

    The news is that I got a call from the girl we're talkng about with a proposition to do the whole job (the whole project) for 1500 euros (!!!). I told her that this is not right, because I might use her 5 times and I might use her 20. So, this "whole job" deal might prove to be unsatisfactory for me or for her... Told her that I'll make an offer for a 4-hour sitting and see if she likes it.

    I heard that models working for the Greek Art Academy are paid something like 5-6 euros per hour. Of course, they are not being photographed.

    Since hourly rates for services are much lower here in Greece than in nortern Euro countries, I am thinking about offering a 25 euro/hour rate (100 euro for 4 hours) plus food, drinks and whatever plus a few pictures after the project is finished... Does this sound fair ?
     
  13. Ole

    Ole Moderator Staff Member

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    George, I think that sounds fair. It's about half of what I paid last time; and since Norwegian wages (and cost of everything) are among the highest in the world that seems about right.

    BTW, that model was an experienced art academy model - I swear she didn't even breathe except when I told her to! Holding a pose for less than half an hour was entirely new to her. :smile:
     
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  15. George Papantoniou

    George Papantoniou Member

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    Cousin Ole, I would think about asking her to come and pose for me, but if I have to pay for the travel expenses PLUS the Norwegian hourly rates, I would go bankrupt !! :surprised:
     
  16. laverdure

    laverdure Member

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    How about tourists? Finding under the table work in Greece is the great dream for a lot of young people.
     
  17. Roger Hicks

    Roger Hicks Member

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    This could be the clincher... Can you find cheap accommodation for attractive young women who are willing to remove their kit in order to model for a (pretty-much-guaranteed) non-sex-maniac?

    I am not kidding. Tell 'em they can register with the police when they arrive (I don't remember -- as far as I recall you have tourist police in Greece?) and that they get subsidized accommodation plus for successful applicants a guaranteed X euros/hr for a guaranteed minimum X hours/week, and you should have certain Northern Europeans queueing.

    Cheers,

    R.
     
  18. Rolleiflexible

    Rolleiflexible Restricted Access

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    I part company with Scott here. I always offer compensation for my subjects, whether they consider themselves models or not. The person in front of my camera is the most important part of my photography. She works. She deserves to be paid. I will make exceptions for various reasons. But my presumption, when I photograph someone, and (important) I am asking for a signed general release so that I can use the photograph for my own purposes, is that I am paying the person who is in front of my camera. I will not shoot TFP, even if the person proposes it.

    I do not pay much -- usually something between $60 and $120, plus the use of selected images from the shoot. Models will not uncommonly ask for $100 to $150 an hour. I do not match those rates but my sense of equity drives me to pay something for the work people do for me.

    Sanders
     
  19. Ole

    Ole Moderator Staff Member

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    I agree with Sanders on this.

    Especially now that most "photographers" shoot digital and offer a CD full of unedited pictures, the TFP is essentially dead. I much prefer to pay, that way there is no problem if I screw up the developing and not a single picture comes out. :tongue:
     
  20. TheFlyingCamera

    TheFlyingCamera Membership Council

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    Sanders- I did mention later that I do offer some cash remuneration as well, but the majority of the compensation is in prints of the work. When my work sells, it goes for a minimum of $250. I give at least two finished, signed prints, and unless we've shot acres of film, I normally print whatever the model chooses for them, even if it is eight or ten images. I do draw a line for my own time and expense - I have had models before ask me for a print of virtually EVERYTHING we shot when I was shooting 35mm - on one shoot I took five rolls of 36 exposures. No way, bub. I also limit what I give for control of my images - sometimes models choose images that I would NEVER print, and I don't want copies of work that I don't plan to use floating around out there.
     
  21. George Papantoniou

    George Papantoniou Member

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    Hi Roger... not a bad idea... do you know how I would do the casting for this operation ? I mean, should I place an ad in the Sunday Times of the Frankfurter Allgemeine or Le Monde saying "Nude Photo Models sought in Greece, free bed & breakfast in Athens in exchange" or something like that, then ask for some photos of them to ensure that they're suitable for the job ? I am afraid that it'll be dificult to choose the right ones (the ones that 1. will have the looks I am looking for, 2. will be cooperative during the job 3. wil be nice persons that will not cause problems, since I'll have to have them staying in my place 4. people that I can be sure that THEY will not be dangerous for me and my family. They certainly have to be confident that I'll not harm them, too, and I don't know how they could be so sure of that.

    On the other hand, if I can have a recommendation from someone I know, things could be different...
     
  22. George Papantoniou

    George Papantoniou Member

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    Yes, I should spend a few days sitting outside the Acropolis and asking young girls if they would like to pose nude for me in exchange for a few euros... if I don't get arrested... which I will...

    I mean, this is not a bad idea, I just have to figure out how to approach them...
     
  23. Rolleiflexible

    Rolleiflexible Restricted Access

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    George, an obvious place to advertise is www.craigslist.org, an online classified ad service that is free to use. It is a well-traveled site in most major American cities. The headings you might try are "Talent Gigs" and "Creative Gigs." For example, here are links to these listings in New York City:

    http://newyork.craigslist.org/tlg/
    http://newyork.craigslist.org/crg/

    If you want, I will ask Melanie if she knows of anyone who would be interested in working with you. Give me dates and terms. If you will provide housing and airfare, and allow the model to accept other work while you're not shooting her, I can probably locate a few terrific candidates for you.

    Sanders
     
  24. haris

    haris Guest

    George, it is interesting situation you have because here in Bosnia, in town/area I live majority of people are muslims. And it is known nudity in Islam is big NO NO. Even not practical religious people are "infected" with that new found religious neoconservatism, and here is very hard to find model for nude photography. So, my first nude model was a girl from Macedonia (FYR Macedonia). As I know (and I easilly could be wrong), people in Greece and FYR Macedonia have simllar mentality, simillar major religion (ortodox christianity), so I am surprised that you have problems with people whose mentality is simillar to one who posed for me without any hesitation and without paying her.

    This is how situation was with her and me, and I am telling you to show you that you can find model when least expected. So, story goes:

    I have female collegue in my firm which is mine good freind . She was in FYR Macedonia some time during the war in Bosnia. One day she told me girl from FYR Macedonia who is here on university, and which my friend met when she was there, would like to have some photographs of her, because she was 2 years in Bosnia and have no photographs of hers time spent here. I agreed to make some photographs, almost touristisic style, as for friend, and we did that. Few hours of wandering through Sarajevo and photographing her. Ater that, we sat to have lunch and coffe, and she said half in joke half seriosly if I need model she would be ready to pose. I answered also half as joke and half seriously it is great, but I am searching for nude model. She replied seriously and without hesitation that is OK too. And so it was, she came to my place, and we had nude photo session.

    What I want to tell is it is not hurt to ask, worst thing can happen is she to say no (of course if hers masculine family members or boyfriend/husband is present when you ask, then... :smile:), and if you don't ask you will not find model. So ask whenever you can, you can never know when you will have luck.

    Oh, one note. If she want to bring someone with her to be sure that nothing will happen to her during posing you should allowe that. BUT!!!!! My (small) experience is next: do not allowe that husband or boyfriend or like are those people who will wach for her. Intimate partners can be big trouble, maybe not during shooting, more often after shooting. Jealousy is strange beast... Then will start things like they asking you to give them negatives/slides/prints or destroy them and like that... Be carefull for that.
     
  25. Ole

    Ole Moderator Staff Member

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    You could also check on Net-Model to see if anyone is coming to Greece anyway - most models will love to get a little extra job to fill up the trip.
    Net-model is international, but seems mostly UK.
     
  26. Ole

    Ole Moderator Staff Member

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