More Kodak

Discussion in 'Product Availability' started by Ian Grant, Jun 22, 2005.

  1. Ian Grant

    Ian Grant Subscriber

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    "Uwe Keller" Pro-lab consumer division, Europe

    . . . all products were in constant review "We can offer no more of a guarantee that we will continue to manufacture black and white films and chemicals than any other company" he said when asked about the future of other monochrome products.

    John Sexton chastises Kodak for their discontinuing papres with so little warning, leaving stocks predicted to last 3 to 6 months. He also calls on photographers to voice their concern to Kodak Directors.

    Martin Reed, owner of the UK's premier specialist B&W dealer "It's handed the business straight to it's competitors, notably Ilford and Forte".
     
  2. Bob Carnie

    Bob Carnie Subscriber

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    I wonder if a supplier some have not thought of is a possible candidate to take this market.
    Fuji has introduced Acros, as well I have bought and printed with their Rembrant fibre paper (very nice by the way) .
    I would not be suprized if Fuji comes into this Black and White market as a major force.
    Agfa and Ilford have a golden opportunity here, but judging by past upper management decisions I rather doubt they will capitalize.
     
  3. Ian Grant

    Ian Grant Subscriber

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    Unlikely Fuji would manufacture B&W materials themselves, their Acros films are made by Ilford, probably same for the paper. However this means work for Ilford, and sense for Fuji to outsourch in a shrinking market place.

    Fuji were the only company to forecast the changing market place with any accuracy, and it's interesting that they are the only company not needing to restructure, or relocate manufacture. Sure they've ceased producing some highly specialist roll film camera but these weren't volume manufacture and there are alternatives still available elsewhere.
     
  4. Kirk Keyes

    Kirk Keyes Member

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    And where can I read more about this claim?
     
  5. BradS

    BradS Subscriber

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    He's got to be kidding...unless you happen to hold a few million shares of big yellow stock, the directors' and the executive management's interest in your (our, customers') opinion of business decisions is probably less than their collective interest in a rain drop that evaporated from one of their parking lots...
     
  6. Ian Grant

    Ian Grant Subscriber

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    By going back through various press releases, reading industry publications etc. You WILL also find information by searching the internet carefully. It's not a trade secret that Ilford and Fuji collaborate on some products. Start searching back issues of the British Journal of Photography, it's weekly !

    However most of the press releases (I've seen) were in UK trade publications it's unlikely they were sent to the US as the products were not due to be sold in that market place, where they would have been competing with Ilford's own films.

    BTW Ilford and Fuji only released facts not claims :smile:

    Originally Ilford manufactured Neopan B&W films were only available in the Japanese & Far East market, then Neopan 400 was released elsewhere followed years later by Neopan Acros.

    Neopan 400 CN is a Fuji version of XP-2, made here in the UK.

    Here's a link
    http://www.apug.org/forums/archive/index.php/t-8686.html

    Ian
     
  7. eric

    eric Member

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    Oh yah, that'll get them shaking in their Florsheims. I don't think they would give a darn about out type of consumers. Our demographic profile are not in the cash cow corner.

    Its like calling our car companies and telling them to put more gas mileage in our cars :smile:
     
  8. RAP

    RAP Member

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  9. Flotsam

    Flotsam Member

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    Maybe they will bring brilliant new innovations into the digital world like they did with the Disc format or their 126 SLR. Or perhaps capture the market as they did with their Polariod killing foray into instant imaging. :rolleyes:
     
  10. ajuk

    ajuk Member

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    Is it just rebranded Delta 100 fuji sell?
     
  11. Ian Grant

    Ian Grant Subscriber

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    Not according to the Press Releases, Fuji or users. The emulsions are obviously similar to Ilford branded products but are specific to Fuji so will show slightly different characteristics.

    More a case of Fuji being smart, getting excellent films from the best possible source without committing to manufacturing B&W themselves in a diminishing market.

    Ian
     
  12. Paul Howell

    Paul Howell Member

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    In the past few days Kodak has started the Always Digital ad campaign here in the Phenix area. From the 2 or 3 TV ads I've seen it looks like Great Yellow Father is targeting cell phone camera users. Kodak will even store images for you on line in case your house burns down.
     
  13. Ian Grant

    Ian Grant Subscriber

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    George Eastman would turn is his grave.

    When I finally visited the US & Rochester for business (photographic) 20 months ago I had preconcieved ideas, most americans would be horified by the way their own media portrays their homeland to the outside world. I expected a good but mundane museum. However I found a world class and superbly run facility.

    Kodak's lost the plot and has no senior management who can make remotely accurate strategic over views of the potential market changes, very different to Fuji.

    Ian

    QUOTE=Paul Howell]In the past few days Kodak has started the Always Digital ad campaign here in the Phenix area. From the 2 or 3 TV ads I've seen it looks like Great Yellow Father is targeting cell phone camera users. Kodak will even store images for you on line in case your house burns down.[/QUOTE]
     
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  15. Paul Howell

    Paul Howell Member

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    What bothered me is that in the Ads a group of children are touring the digital realm in which all of the great photographs, along with all of the others not so great, are on display. Some are really important historical images, non of which were taken with a cell phone camera.
     
  16. gnashings

    gnashings Inactive

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  17. Ian Grant

    Ian Grant Subscriber

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    Please . . . . . . . don't quote me thats a Kodak Statement..

    Lets think realistically about why Kodaks not on the ball :smile:

    They (Americans) still play rounders, an old Scottish game but as wimps with armour - and a name change to baseball.

    They looked at the heroic sport played in Canada, the UK, Ireland, France, Italy , Romania, Fiji, Samoa etc etc and a couple of other small islands in Australasia, put heavy padding on and called it American Football simplifying the game as it was too hard and mentally taxing :smile:

    The only time an American has an eye on the ball internationally is in the Golfing world and thats again of Scottish origin.

    Stupid as it might seem it's true but really more about american companies not understanding world markets, and in the case of Kodak making far too many marketing mistakes and being to late spotting the maket changes.

    Ian
     
  18. SchwinnParamount

    SchwinnParamount Member

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    those remarks are offensive
     
  19. Photo Engineer

    Photo Engineer Subscriber

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    Actually, there are alternative explanations as to why Fuji has Ilford make B&W film for them. B&W films are hard to make, so maybe Fuji cannot do a good enough job. Maybe their plant is not big enough, but maybe, just maybe they are making mistakes just like Kodak.

    Has anyone cared to look at the sudden confusing name changes of Fuji products, or the markets they have dropped out of? Has anyone looked at their losses in the traditional photo products area? What is their penetration in China vs Kodak in all photo products?

    The list could go on, but I think that everyone here is content to bash Kodak for their errors rather than include Fuji.

    Lets bash Ilford as well. Why did they almost sink? Anyone consider that it was a bunch of bad decisions? Comment here has been made about the new multigrade paper keeping less well than previous papers due to the incorporated developer. Good or bad decision? Time will tell. When your recent paper performs more poorly than stuff 5 - 10 years old, then you might begin to make posts here about Ilford.

    What state is Agfa in right now?

    Lets be fair. There is enough blame to go around to Ilford, Fuji, Agfa, Ferrania, 3M, etc, etc. And if you read enough posts you read complaints about some companies films having too much curl, coating defects, and even emulsion that floats off the support. And yet many people still want to save some money and trust their memories to these cut rate films.

    Kodak management has made some big errors, no doubt, but so have all of the other photo companies and many of them are hanging on by their teeth. Lets give Kodak the benefit of a doubt. They are still selling quality products in color and B&W and the loss of sales in B&W to digital and to people who want cut rate products has made them decide to exit that market in paper.

    This should be a rounded debat rather than the bashing of a country or a company.

    PE
     
  20. jd callow

    jd callow Moderator Staff Member

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    Good Post PE.

    Fuji has done one thing that irks me to no end. They bought the rights to the graphmatic, made a flimsy copy of it and then took it off the market or at least reduced its availability.

    How american of them. They have the rights to one of the best inventions ever and they do nothing with it. Where are the chiness counterfeiters when you need them?

    In any event Kodak has seen the writing on the wall. If they want to remain a HUGE company they need to get into new markets and out of any markets that don't meet their goals.
     
  21. lee

    lee Member

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    bashing of a country or a company.

    This is a particular habit this guy does. I had some PM's with him a while ago and he started in on this bash the US. He apologized when I called him on it but I see he did not mean it now.

    lee\c
     
  22. mmcclellan

    mmcclellan Subscriber

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    Ian,

    You really are offensive. Still smarting from losing all your colonies? First the Americas? Then Ireland? Then India and half of Africa? Soon Northern Ireland? Maybe Scotland if Sean Connery has his way?

    Cool it with the political crap.
     
  23. Claire Senft

    Claire Senft Member

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    Ian,

    Who do you think you are? Give it a rest.
     
  24. esanford

    esanford Member

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    Let's get back on point here... Kodak was a film company. George Eastman became one of the richest men of his time because he figured out that selling film to the everyday individual would bring he and his company huge sales and profits... He was a high tech marketing wizard at the turn of the century. I also visited the Eastman house year before last, and one of the points they make during the tour was that Eastman tried very hard to sell his roll film to professionals (those doing glass plate, albumen etc...); they rejected the product because they felt that it was insufficient to meet professional applications. So, Eastman marketed to consumers in the same way that Henry Ford marketed the model T, and the company grew tremendously. Eastman was the Bill Gates of his time. The professional and advanced amateur market has never been a major revenue driver for Kodak.... just pull up their sales history and balance sheets.

    Now comes digital... The same forces that pushed roll film in the late 1800s to early 1900s is what's creating the digital revolution... Consumers want it for ease of use, and unfortunately for photographers like us, the consumer market is where the dollars are (2/3s of GDP is consumer spending... a similar percentage applies globally). The only mistake that Kodak made is that the company took too long to understand this. The only way Kodak will survive is to cut costs in the areas where there are low sales volumes (i.e. our stuff), and to develop new products in the booming digital market. We don't like it, but it is a business fact!!! Because George Eastman was such a visionary and thinker both from an artistic standpoint as well as a marketing and business standpoint, he would have gotten to digital sooner. So, if he is turning over in his grave, it is because those who now run his company couldn't see the market forces on the horizon. This is all about business; I am sure that there will always be boutique companies who will develop "our stuff"; however it won't be kodak, and remember, Ilford is not on firm financial ground even as we speak.... Fuji will be digital as well... plain and simple....
     
  25. Paul Howell

    Paul Howell Member

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    I have to agree, an urban legend that was going around a couple of years ago is that in the mid 90's Polaroid had a chance to buy Adobe to get a foothold in the digital market, but Polaroid passed and 10 years later it is a shadow of itself. I just hope that the world wide analog market will be large enough to keep one or two film and paper manufactures in business
     
  26. raucousimages

    raucousimages Member

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    Last weekend I saw a photo mag (dont remember which one) doing a review of camera phones like this was serious photographic equiptment. It looks like kodak wants to make us go that way by teaching our children that a phonecam is the only camera you need (see their new tv ad).