New Incandescent Bulbs

Discussion in 'Darkroom Equipment' started by arigram, Jul 7, 2009.

  1. arigram

    arigram Member

    Messages:
    5,474
    Joined:
    Sep 21, 2004
    Location:
    Crete, Greec
    Shooter:
    Medium Format
    I've read concerns about the disappearance of the old bulb due to the stricter new environmental laws in the EU, US and other countries, which might have an effect in the printing process.
    Well, Philips is trying hard to keep their business, so they made some upgrades:

    http://www.nytimes.com/2009/07/06/business/energy-environment/06bulbs.html?_r=1

    [​IMG]

    The question thought still stands: Do we really need this type of lighting to continue with our printing?
     
  2. Akki14

    Akki14 Member

    Messages:
    1,873
    Joined:
    Feb 2, 2007
    Location:
    London, UK
    Shooter:
    4x5 Format
    I've been buying quite a few of these halogens-that-look-like-bulbs. They're common enough to be found in supermarkets here in the UK. They're pretty good and I like them because they're bright.
    Not sure how they'd be in enlargers because my enlarger already takes a halogen-type bulb (but the sock and pin kind).
     
  3. PhotoJim

    PhotoJim Member

    Messages:
    2,223
    Joined:
    Oct 9, 2005
    Location:
    Regina, SK,
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
    We certainly can't use compact fluorescent bulbs. They require minutes to warm up to full brightness, and don't have a full spectrum of light which creates issues with colour printing. Also, their lives are very short indeed when they are turned on and off frequently. I would wager that a good percentage of compact fluorescents used today are misused in places like bathrooms, pantries, etc. where bulbs are on and off quickly. (This is true of traditional fluorescents, too; they work best when they are on for a half hour or more each time they are turned on.)

    These new halogen-incandescent cross bulbs are interesting, though. I don't see why they wouldn't work well. I think a person would have to reappraise filtration and exposure time, but they ought to work otherwise.
     
  4. Ektagraphic

    Ektagraphic Member

    Messages:
    2,893
    Joined:
    Feb 3, 2009
    Location:
    Southeastern
    Shooter:
    Medium Format
    Interesting bulbs...
     
  5. BetterSense

    BetterSense Member

    Messages:
    3,070
    Joined:
    Aug 16, 2008
    Location:
    North Caroli
    Shooter:
    35mm
    I have those in my bathroom. Bulb-in-a-bulb. I imagine the output spectrum is not that of a true blackbody, but peaked at certain spots because of the halogen-ness. Should work ok in an enlarger though.
     
  6. Anscojohn

    Anscojohn Subscriber

    Messages:
    2,727
    Joined:
    Dec 31, 2006
    Shooter:
    Medium Format
    Like Heather, I have used enlargers which operate with halogen bulbs. I do not see a problem.
     
  7. Thomas Bertilsson

    Thomas Bertilsson Subscriber

    Messages:
    14,947
    Joined:
    Jan 21, 2003
    Location:
    Minnesota
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
    AND, right when you switch a CFL or fluorescent tube on they suck more power than incandescent bulbs. I really hope that the standard bulbs stick around, because I print with a condenser enlarger and have no intention to ever switch. I did purchase 10 150W and 5 250W bulbs, just in case. That would give me plenty of time to find an alternative.

    - Thomas

     
  8. PhotoJim

    PhotoJim Member

    Messages:
    2,223
    Joined:
    Oct 9, 2005
    Location:
    Regina, SK,
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
    I'm tempted to buy a cache of incandescent bulbs.

    I know most people aren't big fans of taxation, but I think a better response to encourage the development of more efficient bulbs would be to tax inefficient ones (and put the tax revenues into lighting research, by all means). That would allow them to stay on the market but drive away all but the most ardent users.

    I'm relieved to see some technological development here, though. Perhaps my fears of the bulbs being gone completely were unfounded.
     
  9. Ralph Javins

    Ralph Javins Member

    Messages:
    832
    Joined:
    Jul 4, 2008
    Location:
    Latte Land,
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
    Good morning;

    The complaint about incandescent light bulbs is almost amusing. The chief argument is their "efficiency;" they "waste" over 95 percent of their energy as heat. No more than 5 percent of the energy results in light.

    To which I reply; "So?" Where are the light bulbs located? They are inside the house. Out here, we normally heat our houses. That energy converted to heat is not "lost;" it stays inside the house and helps also to warm the house. If anything, the major effect is to reduce the "on" cycle time of the heating system, but the overall energy consumed to keep the house inside temperature comfortable for us remains the same. I admit that in Arizona in the summertime, this effect may not be what you want, but up here in the Pacific Northwest, it does come in handy.

    As others have pointed out, it may be time to get a few more lamps put away in reserve to keep the old condenser type enlargers going.

    Regarding a comment in the New York Times article mentioned, Light Emitting Diodes (LED) are not yet used in "street lights," the high-power lights on poles that light up the roadway surface at night, but they are used in traffic signals at our intersections. In that application, the LED traffic signal displays reduced our electrical power consumption at our intersections by 90 percent. Over their expected lifetime, these traffic signal displays pay for themselves with the saving in electricity. There are some down side arguments to this, though. We no longer go out to each intersection once per year to perform routine maintenance and checking of the traffic signals. That was more than just changing the light bulbs. We also replaced broken parts, missing screws, tightened mounting hardware that loosens in the wind over months of constant vibration, and other things. That preventive maintenance is now lost. The functional reliability of our traffic signals is now somewhat less.
     
  10. Thomas Bertilsson

    Thomas Bertilsson Subscriber

    Messages:
    14,947
    Joined:
    Jan 21, 2003
    Location:
    Minnesota
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
    Here in Minnesota where the winters are cold, the old style traffic lights with bulbs had enough heat in them to melt the snow off in the winter. The Light Emitting Diodes don't. So it may become a safety hazard in a snow storm unless they come up with a device to actually melt the snow.
     
  11. archphoto

    archphoto Member

    Messages:
    1,066
    Joined:
    Dec 14, 2008
    Location:
    Holland and
    Shooter:
    4x5 Format
    In Holland LED's are used in trafic lights aswell and function great.
    If the city decides to lower maintenace rates complaints will follow from the public, however the lights themselves need less replacement and are more reliable.
    Using LED's in the darkroom is a thing I want to experiment with when I get to build my darkroom.

    Peter
     
  12. Thomas Wilson

    Thomas Wilson Member

    Messages:
    230
    Joined:
    Jul 4, 2008
    Location:
    Baltimore, M
    Shooter:
    Medium Format
    Absolutely correct!!

    Having spent the last nine years in the commercial & electrical and lighting industry, I can assure everyone that the unintended consequences of reducing maintenance costs is, by definition, a reduction in maintenance.

    This will eventually be measured and calculated in terms of acceptable deaths per mile driven.
     
  13. Fred De Van

    Fred De Van Member

    Messages:
    87
    Joined:
    Jan 22, 2004
    Location:
    Upstate New
    Shooter:
    Medium Format
    I read that article and was immediately alarmed because the object is to make the bulbs more efficent. The problem will arise with low output applications like safelights. It is already difficult to find incandecent bulbs at less than 40 watts. Safelights are often 25, 15 or even 7.5 watts, and any increased output would create an un-safelight. It is unlikely that anybody would start making new safelights of any kind. We may all have to go to a Thomas, (not necessarily a bad thing and Fred Thomas is an old and dear friend) but they are quite expensive. They are not "incandescent" (as defined by the law) but Freestyle list the replacement bulb alone for one of those at $109.99. With my tight budget I am always in fear of my ancient Thomas needing a bulb replacement.
     
  14. Sponsored Ad
  15. Thomas Wilson

    Thomas Wilson Member

    Messages:
    230
    Joined:
    Jul 4, 2008
    Location:
    Baltimore, M
    Shooter:
    Medium Format
    Fred,
    you are correct. The lamps in the Thomas Duplex are not incandescent, they are H.I.D. (High Intensity Discharge).
    More specifically, they are Low Pressure Sodium lamps, not to be confused with High Pressure Sodium lamps.

    If you can tell me the wattage, I can put you in contact with a distributor who will sell them to you directly. It's probably an 18 watt or perhaps even a 35 watt. Either way, you should not have to pay more than $40.00-$50.00 for one.

    Or, just Google: 18 watt low pressure sodium lamp.
     
  16. eddym

    eddym Member

    Messages:
    1,927
    Joined:
    Jan 22, 2006
    Location:
    Puerto Rico
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
    You're not married, are you Jim?
    :smile:
     
  17. ann

    ann Subscriber

    Messages:
    2,910
    Joined:
    Sep 10, 2002
    Shooter:
    35mm
    just saw an article in the paper with regard to this issue and it seems that some manufactors are coming up with a bulb that is still tungsen but falls under the new guide line.

    i need to go back and read more carefully.
     
  18. eddym

    eddym Member

    Messages:
    1,927
    Joined:
    Jan 22, 2006
    Location:
    Puerto Rico
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
    Aren't "cold-light" enlarger heads a form of flourescent bulb?
     
  19. CBG

    CBG Member

    Messages:
    894
    Joined:
    Nov 21, 2004
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
    Ummm .. If I get it right, all halogens are incandescent - but a special type of incandescent. Halogens have been commercially mislabeled as not incandescent as a way to make the public understand that they are somewhat different from ordinary incandescents. It's sort of like squares and rectangles. All squares are rectangles, but not all rectangles are squares. All halogens are incandescent, i.e. all rely on a glowing resistive filament, but not all incandescent have the halogen atmosphere that prolongs the life of that filament.
     
  20. CBG

    CBG Member

    Messages:
    894
    Joined:
    Nov 21, 2004
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
    I'm stocking up in a big way on photo and household bulbs I will need, and sourcing more energy efficient types wherever possible. Some uses just don't seem amenable to high efficiency bulbs.

    Safelights however may be able to go very "green" (pardon the anti-pun). I'm testing "SuperBright" brand LED red bulbs for safelighting. The brightness seems good, but I haven;t tested the fogging yet. So far, just to do other more critical tests, I just stuck the red LEDs behind red safelight filters to be safe.
     
  21. gmikol

    gmikol Member

    Messages:
    304
    Joined:
    Mar 2, 2009
    Location:
    Vancouver, W
    Shooter:
    35mm
    I love these bulbs. I am slowly replacing traditional incandescents with these. More light and less heat in the fixtures. Also, due to the slightly higher operating temperature of the filament, the color temperature is slightly higher (Philips says 2900K vs. 2800-2850K for a typical 100W soft-white light bulb). It seems small, but it seems noticeable to me.

    This is something to keep in mind if you're replacing some other standard-base bulb. With a little more blue in the light, VC papers might shift a bit, so test, test, test...

    I'll gladly buy any high-efficiency incandescent bulb that comes out, as long as they're not playing tricks with emissive coatings on the bulbs that would make the output "spiky".

    --Greg
     
  22. archphoto

    archphoto Member

    Messages:
    1,066
    Joined:
    Dec 14, 2008
    Location:
    Holland and
    Shooter:
    4x5 Format
    As for 15W lamps for darkroom lights: why not use lamps for fridges ?
    I have never seen anything other than the traditional incandescents in them.
    If your darkroom lamp has a big socket replace it with a small one, it is not that dificult.

    My biggest worry right now would be the lamps for the enlarger heads if they do use the "wrong" type of lamp.
    Finding a good replacement for them, esp the condensor type could get hard, in a difusor box you would have more options.

    Peter
     
  23. Wade D

    Wade D Member

    Messages:
    900
    Joined:
    Feb 15, 2006
    Location:
    Jamul, CA
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
    There are LED's mounted in standard sockets which are bright enough to use in the enlarger but they are quite expensive. In my case a diffuser panel would be needed so the condensers wouldn't project an image of the LED's. For now I have stocked up on PH212 bulbs for the old 45M. Maybe in the future someone will invent a fiber optic solution that will store sunlight for use in the enlarger even at night. All of you inventors get busy!:wink:
     
  24. Steve Smith

    Steve Smith Subscriber

    Messages:
    8,968
    Joined:
    May 3, 2006
    Location:
    Ryde, Isle o
    Shooter:
    Medium Format
    Although there are LED theatre type lights (and I have posted about them for enlarger use). Proper theatre lighting is going to be incandescent for a very long time so these types of bulbs will be available.

    There are plenty of options here which could be adapted to enlargers: http://www.bltdirect.com/products.php?cat=247&nm=Theatre+Lamps

    (or more correctly, have the enlarger adapted to them).


    Steve.
     
  25. AgX

    AgX Member

    Messages:
    11,182
    Joined:
    Apr 5, 2007
    Location:
    Germany
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
    Here is something official (by the European Commitee) on those bulbs to be banned:

    http://ec.europa.eu/energy/efficien..._12_08_technical_briefing_household_lamps.pdf


    Quote:
    Special purpose incandescent lamps (e.g. those used in household appliances such as ovens or
    fridges, traffic lights, infrared lamps etc.) are meant to be exempt from the measure, as they
    cannot fulfil the efficiency requirements and most of the time there is no alternative lamp
    technology.



    This of course is only applicable for part of us Apuggers, but as a major market it shows a bit of the direction production will take. Furthermore you would still be able to import banned bulbs I guess.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 10, 2009
  26. rmolson

    rmolson Member

    Messages:
    307
    Joined:
    Feb 23, 2006
    Location:
    Mansfield Oh
    Shooter:
    Medium Format
    CLF

    I made the mistake of replacing a 15 watt safelight bulb with a 15 watt CLF, ONCE! The output is nearly equal to a 40 or 60 watt lamp. fog city big time! Never again.