No D94 available for reversal processing - Tri-X Super 8

Discussion in 'B&W: Film, Paper, Chemistry' started by aca91, Sep 26, 2010.

  1. aca91

    aca91 Member

    Messages:
    62
    Joined:
    Jun 16, 2009
    Shooter:
    35mm
    Hello,

    I developed a super 8 roll of Tri-X with a Tmax Reversal Kit and got nothing from it. I googled and I found that d-94 is supposed to be the first developer in this kind of normal reversal processing. Anyhow, I won't find d-94 in my city and Im somehow in a hurry: I have the bleach of the Tmax kit, and I suppose I can still use it. My question is if I can replace d-94 as a first developer for rodinal or hc110, for example, and what times should I use. I would also like to know what should I use as a redeveloper, and how much should I reexpose the film. Thanks in advance for your help
     
  2. Alessandro Serrao

    Alessandro Serrao Member

    Messages:
    946
    Joined:
    Oct 20, 2004
    Location:
    Rome, Italy
    Shooter:
    35mm
    Basically no. Hc110 is a film developer and as such is a low-medium contrast developer. It should be tweaked to obtain a higher contrast grade. A thing that isn't feasible when you are in a hurry. Get some paper developer and start from there. D94 is basically D19 with a silver halide solvent added.
    If you decide to go by the D19 route get some sodium hyposulfite and mix it with the developer.
    For the second developer use straight D19 WITHOUT the hypo added, for half the time used in the first developer stage.

    Don't add any thiocyanate instead of the hypo in the first developer, since thiocyanate is incompatible with a permanganate bleach.
     
  3. tiberiustibz

    tiberiustibz Member

    Messages:
    1,749
    Joined:
    Oct 22, 2007
    Location:
    Tufts Univer
    Shooter:
    35mm
  4. hrst

    hrst Member

    Messages:
    1,300
    Joined:
    May 10, 2007
    Location:
    Finland
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
    If you got nothing, that can also be a sign of too much halide solvent (hypo) in first developer. Better safe than sorry, try with a standard BW paper developer without any additives, and if you can't get the contrast right and can't get clear enough highlights, then try to add some sodium thiosulphate (hypo) carefully, at a few grams per liter first.

    It's, however, quite surprising you got nothing.

    For second developer, almost any will do, but I'd recommend standard paper developer. Do not add hypo to this.

    For reversal exposure, it's not that critical. I'm not sure if it is even possible to overdo it in practice. Two minutes near a lightbulb is ok for film on spiral if you move it to give exposure from every direction. If the film is not on a spiral, it's even easier, just have every part of film to have some light.
     
  5. CBG

    CBG Member

    Messages:
    894
    Joined:
    Nov 21, 2004
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
    Make your own? All components easily available.

    Kodak D-94 first developer for reversal processing of black and white motion picture film.
    The "official" first developer for reversal processing of black and white motion picture film.

    Working Solution Replenisher
    Water 122°F 750 ml 750 ml
    Metol 0.6 g 1.3 g
    Sodium sulphite anh 50 g 50 g
    Hydroquinone 20 g 26 g
    Potassium bromide 8 g -------
    Sodium Thiocyanate liq. 9.1 ml 11.4 ml
    Sodium Hydroxide 20 g 34 g
    Water to 1 Litre 1 Litre

    pH@27°C (80.6°F)12.75 ± 0.05*****12.80 ± 0.05
    S.G.@27°C (80.6°F)1.074 ± 0.003***1.079 ± 0.003

    Processing Kodak Motion Picture Films, Manual H24. Module 15, Black and White Films. Eastman Kodak 1991, revised July 2000. John Pearle (CRC)
     
  6. aca91

    aca91 Member

    Messages:
    62
    Joined:
    Jun 16, 2009
    Shooter:
    35mm
    Thank you all for your answers.
    Can I use dektol as a first developer? would I need to add something to it? would a highly concentrated rodinal and a lot of agitation help? I have no idea about chemestry, thanks a lot for all this information.
    Another thing, is my bleach ok for this task?
     
  7. hrst

    hrst Member

    Messages:
    1,300
    Joined:
    May 10, 2007
    Location:
    Finland
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
    If you have only Dektol and Rodinal, start with Dektol. It's basically quite close. See also, http://www.ilfordphoto.com/Webfiles/20061291034093.pdf

    Then, you can add hypo (sodium thiosulfate) to first developer at about 1 - 10 g/l to increase contrast and remove "muddiness" from highlights. If you can't get plain hypo anywhere, you can try adding some fixer (a few milliliters) to the developer, but it will cause some problems like pH change in developer. So anyway, IMO better start without hypo. It will give you a starting point and you should be able to get an image.

    Experiment with short strips. It won't take that much time to try out different developing times, exposures etc. And as you have some starting point, we will be able to give more specific tips.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 27, 2010
  8. aca91

    aca91 Member

    Messages:
    62
    Joined:
    Jun 16, 2009
    Shooter:
    35mm
    Thank you hrst
    I did what you told me. I used dektol and bought some hypo and it worked, I have an image. I used 5 minutes for the first developer, then r10 bleach from my tmax kit, then a clearing bath and then I reexposed. The images on the frames were very sharp; then, when I redeveloped and fixed, I saw and the images were still there but they were very gray, they had no contrast. I suppose that happened because I left my film too much time in the second developer. Is that right? maybe a shorter time will do?
    Thank you.
     
  9. aca91

    aca91 Member

    Messages:
    62
    Joined:
    Jun 16, 2009
    Shooter:
    35mm
    Update: I checked Kodak's h24 publication and they say it might be totally the opposite. I will do a second strip rising both development times to 7 minutes.
     
  10. Alessandro Serrao

    Alessandro Serrao Member

    Messages:
    946
    Joined:
    Oct 20, 2004
    Location:
    Rome, Italy
    Shooter:
    35mm
    The second developer goes to completion. Usually 6 minutes are sufficient.
    It's the first developer time that must be longer. Try also to put more hypo in the first developer.
     
  11. aca91

    aca91 Member

    Messages:
    62
    Joined:
    Jun 16, 2009
    Shooter:
    35mm
    I got my strip, thank you for your advice Alessandro. Now I have another problem; my strip came out negative... what am I doing wrong? I think that maybe my bleach, R10, does not need a reexposure, since it is not listed in the steps of my tmax kit. Should I try another strip without reexposing, or should I prepare another bleach?
     
  12. Alessandro Serrao

    Alessandro Serrao Member

    Messages:
    946
    Joined:
    Oct 20, 2004
    Location:
    Rome, Italy
    Shooter:
    35mm
    Negative?
    The process is:
    1) first developer with hypo added;
    2) wash
    3) bleach (usually two bottles: one permanganate and another sulfuric acid);
    4) wash
    5) clearing
    6) wash
    7) reexposure or, if you use T-Max reversal kit, reversal solution
    8) second developer without hypo added (usually the same as first developer, halved in concentration)
    9) wash
    10) fix
    11) wash

    Negative means that there's a problem with the permanganate bleach. Have you mixed part a and part b?
     
  13. aca91

    aca91 Member

    Messages:
    62
    Joined:
    Jun 16, 2009
    Shooter:
    35mm
    THat's exactly what I did...? I just checked the bottles to be sure; yes, I mixed sulfuric acid with permanganate
     
  14. aca91

    aca91 Member

    Messages:
    62
    Joined:
    Jun 16, 2009
    Shooter:
    35mm
    Is it possible that my tmax kit is expired? It has the old tmax logo
     
  15. aca91

    aca91 Member

    Messages:
    62
    Joined:
    Jun 16, 2009
    Shooter:
    35mm
    By the way, Im clearing before fixing and Im using dektol
     
  16. hrst

    hrst Member

    Messages:
    1,300
    Joined:
    May 10, 2007
    Location:
    Finland
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
    If you get a negative, that could mean that both your bleach and reversal solution are dead. Or something else, but this is what comes to my mind.

    Use re-exposure, it cannot go bad :smile:.

    After mixing sulfuric acid and permanganate, they won't last forever.
     
  17. Alessandro Serrao

    Alessandro Serrao Member

    Messages:
    946
    Joined:
    Oct 20, 2004
    Location:
    Rome, Italy
    Shooter:
    35mm
    The second developer isn't the culprit. If a negative image is retained it only means that it isn't bleached.
    Permanganate lasts a long time in concentrated form. Once mixed with sulfuric acid it must be used in 2 hours.

    The problem could be this: he's using tap water to mix the bleach. This way the permanganate oxidizes all the metals cointained in the tap water, such as Mg, Fe ecc...

    Possible solution: use distilled water to mix the bleach.
     
  18. aca91

    aca91 Member

    Messages:
    62
    Joined:
    Jun 16, 2009
    Shooter:
    35mm
    I just prepared a new bleach (R-9)following Martin Baumgarten's intructions (water + potassium dichromate + sulfuric acid) I will give it a try, for around three minutes. I'll tell you what happened.
     
  19. aca91

    aca91 Member

    Messages:
    62
    Joined:
    Jun 16, 2009
    Shooter:
    35mm
    It worked. For anyone that would like to develop motion film without d-94 here is what I did:

    1) Dektol stock 1L + hypo +-10g (sodium thiosulfate):8mins at 20º/68f
    2) Wash: 30s
    3) Bleach (1 L water + Potassium dichromate 9.5g + Sulfuric acid 12ml): 3min
    4) Wash: 30s
    5) Clearing Bath: 30s
    6) Wash
    7) Reexposure: 30min, 50cm from 60 watt bulb
    8) Dektol stock: 7min
    9) Wash: 30s
    10) Fix :5min
    11) Clearing Bath: 30s
    12) Wash: 5min
    13) Dry inside the reel with a hair/hot/pistol I have no idea what that thing's name is.

    Thanks everyone for helping me out.
     
  20. Gerald C Koch

    Gerald C Koch Member

    Messages:
    5,440
    Joined:
    Jul 12, 2010
    Location:
    Southern USA
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
    Yes, for reversal processing things appear to be backwards. If your slides are too dense then you need to increase the time in the first developer, and visa versa.
     
  21. Alessandro Serrao

    Alessandro Serrao Member

    Messages:
    946
    Joined:
    Oct 20, 2004
    Location:
    Rome, Italy
    Shooter:
    35mm
    Excelent!!:D