Old Paper

Discussion in 'B&W: Film, Paper, Chemistry' started by Rlibersky, Aug 29, 2005.

  1. Rlibersky

    Rlibersky Subscriber

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    I have aquirred some paper made in the 40's. I like to get old paper to print on. Some has been great others spotted and fogged. Suprising haw many are still printable.

    Anyway, I bought 4 different kinds that I have not worked with before.

    Has anyone worked with or even remember the following?

    Haliod 10"x10" Type V Grade 2, made to army spec. 75-1570
    Kodak Illustrator Speacial 11x14 Type E
    Kodak Vitava Opal 11x14 Type G
    Defender Varigram 11x14 Type BT

    The Defender is a variable constrast paper. The rest did not come with instructions.
     
  2. Rlibersky

    Rlibersky Subscriber

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    Just bumping.
     
  3. Paul Howell

    Paul Howell Member

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    If you can find any of the old Kodak Data Guides you might be able to find a sample for the Illustrator or Opal and the paper surfaces.
     
  4. athanasius80

    athanasius80 Member

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    Defender Varigram was (I think) the first of the variable contrast papers. The filter sets show up on ebay occasionally. Kodak Illustrator Special is most likely very similar to Azo. Kodak made Illustrator's Azo that was extra glossy for reproduction purposes. I'd guess Illustrator Special is the same thing under a different name. Vitava is a contact paper on (I believe) a warmtone base. I know nothing about Haloid paper. You caught me on the way to work, otherwise I'd pull out my old Kodak catalogs and see if I can find more than just what I can remember.
     
  5. Rlibersky

    Rlibersky Subscriber

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    I got some info that the Opal has Cadium in the emulsion. If true what would this do to the look of the paper or effects on toning?
     
  6. Rlibersky

    Rlibersky Subscriber

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    I called Kodak's paper help dept. today. There information only goes back as far as 1964. The Opal and Illustrator went out of date in 1949.
     
  7. magic823

    magic823 Member

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    Here is what my old Photo-Lab index says:

    Kodak Illustrators' Special:
    Has a full scalle, brilliant emulsion of the quality and speed of Opal. It is an excellent medium for commericial illustration and reproduction purposes, and the surface is well suited to retouching or other form of art work. This paper can also be used for combination pictures and "paste-in" photomontages. It is supplied in (E) lustre, white, fine-grained surface, both Single and Double Weight.

    It lists the speel of it as 400 American Standard Paper Speed (Polycontast Rapid is 800, Azo is 10)

    Kodak Vitava Opal 11x14 Type G (they only list Kodak Opal)
    Has warmth of tone and gradation which makes it one of the most popular projection papers used by portrait photographers. It has sufficent speed for enlarging with standard equipment and can be used for contact printing with reduced illumination. Opal is supplied in one degree of contrast and in thirteen pleasing surfaces.

    Speed is listed as 200.

    Defender Varigram 11x14 Type BT

    I don't list anything called Defender, but Varigram is DuPont's variable contrast paper.

    I couldn't find anything on the first paper.

    This info is from my 1964 and 1972 Photo-Lab Indexes (love these old things!)

    Steve
     
  8. Ronald Moravec

    Ronald Moravec Member

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    Just shows you wat Kodak will tell you today. My data guide from the late 60`s has samples of both Opel and Illistrator Special. My friend had a wedding business and all prints were made on Opel G until he was forced into color in the 1980`s.

    Yes, the cad lets it one beautifully. The environmentalists got to that one. Nothing warm tones properly anymore without the cad. I suggest you give up. Portriga was another loss to cad paranoya. The warm tone papers from east europe were the last to include cad. Forte I think. You might try a small pack.
     
  9. seadrive

    seadrive Member

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    I believe DuPont's paper was called Varigam, not Varigram.
     
  10. Rlibersky

    Rlibersky Subscriber

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    I do as well. The one I have is from 1977. Neither paper is listed. I appreciate the info.

    [/Quote]Just shows you wat Kodak will tell you today. My data guide from the late 60`s has samples of both Opel and Illustrator Special.

    Yes, the cad lets it tone beautifully.
    Ronald[/Quote]

    I am suprized the Kodak guy didn't have the info, he did suggest Ilford as a fine quality paper to replace the Kodak stuff.

    Thanks for the info on the cad. I only have 50 sheet each. So whatever I get will be it.

    I did find Haloid changed there name to Xerox in 1961. Not much info about them before that.

    It is Varigam. my mistake in the origanal post. Dupont and Defender worked together or bought them at some point.

    Randy
     
  11. Rlibersky

    Rlibersky Subscriber

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    I finally got the time to go test some of this paper. Here are the results so far.

    I’ve only wrote about 3 of the 4 papers. The Opal did not respond to the anti-fog solution.

    All the paper were extremely fogged as seen in the attachments. I took a piece of the paper out of the wrapper and put it directly into the developer. I then add 50ml, at a time, of a 1% Benzotriazole solution until the fog was reduced to a acceptable level.

    All paper came down to a level simulating flashing the paper. The following is what was used in this process.

    D2 enlarger with a Arista cold light.
    Enlarging Lens: Rodenstock Rodagon 80mm lens
    Camera: 645 Mamiya 80mm lens
    Bergger 120 film developed in Gordon Hutchings Pyro negative had normal contrast.
    For all papers
    Developer: LPD 1:3 for 2 minutes
    1gallon with 500ml of 1% Benzotriazole solution
    Stop Bath: Kodak Indicator Stop Bath 30 sec.
    Fixer 1: Sprint Rapid Fix 1:9 ~90 sec.
    Fixer 2: Sprint Rapid Fix 1:9 ~3 min. 30 sec.
    Hypo clear; 5 mins.
    Unfortunately I was out of Selenium toner. (to my surprise I must say)

    The rest is paper specific.
    Illustrator
    Exposure: F4 for 18 sec. The attachment below is a scan of this paper. It seems to have lost some contrast. I will try with a more active developer next time. To my surprise this is a beautiful paper. I think with toning it might have the same look as the palladium paper that the Palladium Co. made.

    Varigam
    I did not fin a good exposure time with this paper. F4 with a Cachet #4 Filter for 6mins gave me a print that was probably 2 stops to light. I will have to try contact printing on this paper. This was a surprise considering that it is a VC paper. I used the number 4 because I could see it was very flat when printed without one. I will try contact printing next. 8x10 is well within the edge fog that still remains.
    Any help on this would be appreciated. Maybe the anti-fog solution is to strong for this paper, if so what other anti-fog solutions are there?

    Haloid
    I ran out of time so I didn’t get to play with this one at all. I did a couple of sheets at 1 min. Still a little light but I will be able to get a good print eventually. The anti-fog worked best on this one, almost no visible depreciation. Even when it was the worse when I put it straight into the soup.

    Well that’s what I got for now. Any ideas or comments will be appreciated.
    Thanks
     

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  12. Peter Schrager

    Peter Schrager Subscriber

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    Haloid Paper: Developed in Amidol with some Pottasium Bromide The rest was sent to Michael Smith and Sandy King for testing
    Best, Peter
     
  13. Rlibersky

    Rlibersky Subscriber

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    Peter did you contact print this picture?
     
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  15. Peter Schrager

    Peter Schrager Subscriber

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    Contact

    Haloid is a CONTACT PAPER. So yes; I did contact print this. Same photo as I put up in the critique gallery but that one was a Platinum print. Sorry I really did not do much notation as the paper was intended for Michael Smith and Paula Chamlee in the hope that it would foward the research into a new AZO. My small contribution.....
    Best, Peter Schrager
     
  16. Rlibersky

    Rlibersky Subscriber

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    Thanks, that explains the my times. I will contact print some this weekend.
     
  17. Peter Schrager

    Peter Schrager Subscriber

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    haloid

    Don't use any antifoggant-it doesn't need it. For Haloid)
    Best, Peter Oh yes-have fun with those other papers!!!
     
  18. Rlibersky

    Rlibersky Subscriber

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    After printing some of the Illustrator, I found it to be quite beautiful. Almost with a platinum look after selenium toning. I put the paper into the toner diluted 1:20 for archival toning. Within a minute, seriously I was caught off guard on how fast this print changed color, it changed to a nice brown.

    I have a couple of questions is will I still get archival properties if I dilute the toner say 1:50 or 1:75? Is one minute long enough to do the job?

    Also when processing this print I get a odor I've never gotten with other paper, could this be the cadium in the paper?

    I like this paper alot, I'm already visualizing some shots for it. Most people have ask where I got the antique print from. They hardly believe me when I tell them only the paper is old.
     
  19. David A. Goldfarb

    David A. Goldfarb Moderator Staff Member Moderator

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    Okay, I finally got around to testing the Haloid Industro today, and I think it is from the same batch as the Haloid that Peter had, and mine was pretty foggy. I processed it in Michael Smith's amidol formula for Azo, and to get the fog down to a reasonable level, I had to add 75 ml/l benzotriazole 1% and develop for no more than 30 sec. Contrast was about a grade less than current Azo grade 2.

    Peter, what were you developing it in that you didn't need any antifoggant, or is yours not from John Stafford's cache?
     
  20. Peter Schrager

    Peter Schrager Subscriber

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    haloid

    David-I'm pretty darn sure it was M. Smith's amidol formula with perhaps a bit extra Pott. Bromide. The paper was from the same source. Personnally I wasn't overwhelmed by the Haloid but I just played real fast with it then sent it out.
    I wish someone made stuff like Illustrator. I believe Paul Strand printed on it.
    Damn-Fred Picker would know that answer. It's just a pity how Kodak choses to dig their head in the sand. I wish we the formulas for these older papers. I'd go have them made in the far middle east where there is no regulation and put the cadmium back in!
    Hope that helped David!
    Best, Peter Schrager
     
  21. David A. Goldfarb

    David A. Goldfarb Moderator Staff Member Moderator

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    Thanks Peter. I've seen some of similar vintage that had a good deal more contrast than the stuff I have, but if I can get it to print cleanly, I wouldn't mind having a paper that looks like a grade 1 version of Azo.
     
  22. Rlibersky

    Rlibersky Subscriber

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    Old 1913 Velox

    Well here is a print on some outdated 1913 Velox. It has a look that reminds me of some of Steiglitz work, not the picture the look :smile:

    it took 50ml of benzotriazole 1% solution, a 1.5 min exposure, 30 sec. in LPD 1:2. If you look at the instructions it say to develope in for 40 seconds. The formula that they list looks like a very active Dektol. See http://www.apug.org/forums/showthread.php?t=18916 I had to do 30sec because at 40sec fog was noticable. The print is the whole sheet, Plus-x 4x5 film. The bottom was cut off because of size. the paper is 3.25x5.5

    I really like the look of this paper, I just need a proper neg to print. Although I could not get the scan to look as good as the print. Sorry about that, the detail is much more subtle in the origanal. It is a different look then the Velox I've printed on from a later date.

    Randy
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 27, 2008
  23. Rlibersky

    Rlibersky Subscriber

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    Eventually some one will care, until then I'll happily continue in my illusion in dealing with old paper. :smile:

    Well I got the paper I bought. A lady contacted me from Utah. Found this in her basement, in a cement vetable cellar. Underground and dry.

    Most of it is Velox. With all respect to MAS I like the cool tone Velox gives. I did get a box from Kodak the simply say CHLORIDE Type IX Contrast 3 10x10 Semi-matt. I am assumming AZO but am not sure. It seems it was made to U.S. Army specification No. 75-157-D.

    Looking forward tousing it.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 27, 2008
  24. David A. Goldfarb

    David A. Goldfarb Moderator Staff Member Moderator

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    Could be interesting. Let us know what you get out of it.
     
  25. Rlibersky

    Rlibersky Subscriber

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    I will. BTW I'm not sure what tousing is should be testing.

    David, Did you have any luck with the Haloid? Mine was projection paper. Slightly fogged but workable. Not sure I like the look though.
     
  26. David A. Goldfarb

    David A. Goldfarb Moderator Staff Member Moderator

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    The Haloid Industro grade 2 that I have is foggy, but definitely a contact paper. The speed is comparable to Azo. I get pretty decent results if I treat it kind of as Azo grade 1, add about 75ml/l benzotriazole to Michael Smith's amidol formula for azo, and expose for a development time of 30 sec.