Old Print Yellow Stains

Discussion in 'B&W: Film, Paper, Chemistry' started by chrisl, Apr 9, 2003.

  1. chrisl

    chrisl Member

    Messages:
    178
    Joined:
    Jan 30, 2003
    Location:
    Berkeley, Ca
    I'm sorting thru some old prints I made in the 70's while in high school. I must embarrassingly admit that apparantly I didn't get the fix out as there are a few prints with yellow 1/2" circular stains. As well, the edges have begun to brown. Is this normal for edges to brown in older prints? Haven't tried yet, but will a hypo and wash take out the yellow stains? I'll probably do it anyway for peace of mind and before storing them in my new acid free box.

    Thanks for any tips,
    Chris
     
  2. Les McLean

    Les McLean Subscriber

    Messages:
    1,609
    Joined:
    Oct 18, 2002
    Location:
    Northern Eng
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
    Chris,

    I'd say your prints are probably beyond recovery. The stain is there because of insufficent fixing and to my knowledge cannot be recovered. If the image area is not stained because you have left border around it you can crop off the border which may help stop the brown staining from reaching the image area. Sorry I couldn't give a more positive reply.
     
  3. Eric Rose

    Eric Rose Subscriber

    Messages:
    4,442
    Joined:
    Nov 21, 2002
    Location:
    Calgary AB,
    Shooter:
    4x5 Format
    Geez I hate those yellow stains.

    But on a photographic note I did lots of newpaper work in the 70's and we used an Ilford B&W stabilization processor. All of my old prints that I kept from that machine have turned yellow. I do understand however that the prints from this process were never meant to be permanent. However prints that I made using the usual processes are still looking great.

    You might be able to tone them and just tell everyone you thought the funky blue was really cool in the 70's. LOL
     
  4. chrisl

    chrisl Member

    Messages:
    178
    Joined:
    Jan 30, 2003
    Location:
    Berkeley, Ca
    That's what I feared. It's not *too* bad so far, so hopefully rewashing will prevent further deteriation. And yes Les, there is border to cut. I'll do that as well.

    Thanks guys!
     
  5. docholliday

    docholliday Member

    Messages:
    116
    Joined:
    Jan 13, 2003
    Location:
    Amongst the
    Chris,

    I do a lot of restoration work for clients. If the prints are really important to you, I'd suggest reshooting them with a yellow filter and the reprinting them onto FB and then reprocessing, toning, etc for archival purposes.

    You could also rewash the prints and trim off the yellowing, if it's in the edges...
     
  6. chrisl

    chrisl Member

    Messages:
    178
    Joined:
    Jan 30, 2003
    Location:
    Berkeley, Ca
    I never did get 'into' toning back then, so maybe that's part of my problem too. This subjects long gone, so reshooting isn't an option. But cutting the edges off will help alot. And I will rewash and tone. Thanks Doc.
     
  7. lee

    lee Member

    Messages:
    2,913
    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2002
    Location:
    Fort Worth T
    Shooter:
    8x10 Format
    I think Doc is\was talking about copying them with a yellow filter. The theory is that the yellow filter will filter the yellow and photograph it as white then you will have copy negs to print on fiber. If it were me I might not want to spend too much time on this project. Live and learn. BUT, if I were I would use my big camera and make 4x5 negs.


    lee\c
     
  8. lee

    lee Member

    Messages:
    2,913
    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2002
    Location:
    Fort Worth T
    Shooter:
    8x10 Format
    Eric,
    The stabilization process used a developer incorporated into the emulsion and the processor used a chemical that activated the the developer. Had those prints dropped into a tray of fixer they, most likely, would look as good as the regular shots from that period. Not fixing the prints is as bad a deal for photographic emulsions as not washing the prints properly, IMO. And you are right the stabilization stuff was not meant to last.

    lee\c
     
  9. Nige

    Nige Subscriber

    Messages:
    2,128
    Joined:
    Sep 8, 2002
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
    I gather you don't still have the negs?
     
  10. DKT

    DKT Member

    Messages:
    504
    Joined:
    Sep 19, 2002
    Try Ilford's Ortho Plus if you have access to a 4x5 camera and plan on copying them. Next to Kodak's discontinued Pro Copy, Ortho + is about the best copy film there is, if you don't need any red sensitivity. The best way to do it, is not to use a yellow filter, but rather a blue filter--or an ortho film. The blue sensivity helps extract detail out of the faded image. You use your processing to shift the contrast around as needed. I copy faded images all the time at the museum where I work, and we use either Ortho + or TMX in 4x5. We use wratten 25 and 47B and some green filters, but only the yellow filters for copying newspaper stock basically. You have to look at the stain and decide what you can do, but most of the time, you're dealing with a faded yellow image, and the ortho film can work miracles practically on it. If the image has alot of inherent reddish/brown tones--like old POP prints--we use TMX and push it...same concept as regular shooting--exposure gives you density/dev for contrast. Orhto + only comes in 4x5 or 8x10, but for yellowed prints, it can't be beat. fwiw, alot of folks use a yellow (or amber) filter when they dupe old negs if the base is stained when making the interpositives. They use a pan film for this, and then an ortho copy film for the dupe neg.

    KT
     
  11. Aggie

    Aggie Member

    Messages:
    4,925
    Joined:
    Jan 1, 2003
    Location:
    So. Utah
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
    ..
     
  12. DKT

    DKT Member

    Messages:
    504
    Joined:
    Sep 19, 2002
    If it's on the edges, it could be as much from bad storage...if it's overall, in the image area--there are ways to bleach out a print and redevelop it, among other things. All this falls into the realm of conservation though...I don't do any of this at work, we mostly stabilize (and copy for old photos) objects, because restoration isn't exactly kosher in the archive/museum business...if there were other problems from storage or the environment with a print, then reprocessing them just opens a whole new can of worms. Better to copy first, then try to do the work. That way if you mess them up, you still have something. Our approach is strictly hands off though--literally--any work is done by professional conservators. ...from my "work" point of view, I'd say either reprint them (if you can) or copy them. If the prints were a couple of years old, that's one thing. But they're getting on 30 now, and while that's not old, I copy "artifacts" that age everyday...'course, they're yours, you can do whatever you want to them.

    btw--a good copy neg, or dupe neg, can be very close to the original in quality, it's just most people don't put the time or effort into making good copynegs...

    KT
     
  13. chrisl

    chrisl Member

    Messages:
    178
    Joined:
    Jan 30, 2003
    Location:
    Berkeley, Ca
    Wow, alot of great information about copying. Great stuff to know. But not really needed as I do still have the negatives. They were just alot of work to print at the time as I recall. Just was looking to preserve what I've got. Thanks for all the information!

    And Thanks for explaining the yellow filter Lee. I misunderstood. And hopefully most of all my present work will be 4x5 at least. In fact, I think I may leave my 35mm system at home with this trip to Europe. Just a Contax T3 and my Wisner. Entirely different approach, it should be an interesting journey lol
     
  14. Sponsored Ad
  15. lee

    lee Member

    Messages:
    2,913
    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2002
    Location:
    Fort Worth T
    Shooter:
    8x10 Format
    </span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (chrisl @ Apr 11 2003, 03:32 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>
    And Thanks for explaining the yellow filter Lee. I misunderstood. And hopefully most of all my present work will be 4x5 at least. In fact, I think I may leave my 35mm system at home with this trip to Europe. Just a Contax T3 and my Wisner. Entirely different approach, it should be an interesting journey lol </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>
    you are welcome. I think I might rethink this using the 4x5 in Europe. When will you get to back to Europe? If soon, OK. If never, or at least not for a long time, I would take something that I am familiar with using. This goes back to old saw that one should not learn or experiment on a paying job. Pretend that the trip to Europe is a paying job. Just my 2 cents. I would wait until I have some more experience with the Wisner.

    lee\c
     
  16. chrisl

    chrisl Member

    Messages:
    178
    Joined:
    Jan 30, 2003
    Location:
    Berkeley, Ca
    Lee, I know what you mean. But this won't be my only time going to Europe, so it's not a 'once in a lifetime' affair. So there's no real pressure to produce something. That makes it easier to just shoot 4x5. I feel pretty confident though as my first outing last week with Aggie, I didn't mess up one shot except for dropping a holder in wet grass, and not having the reciprocity information on hand. I think if I take it real slow as to not forget a step, it should turn out ok. If not, no biggie. Say La Vi' (?sp)hehe
     
  17. lee

    lee Member

    Messages:
    2,913
    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2002
    Location:
    Fort Worth T
    Shooter:
    8x10 Format
    well, good luck. Work really slow and keep someone with you to watch the stuff while your head is under the darkcloth. You might find that tripods are not welcome in the larger cities. I am not trying to talk you out of taking it but only trying to make you aware of some of the issues largeformat shooters face.


    lee\c
     
  18. lee

    lee Member

    Messages:
    2,913
    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2002
    Location:
    Fort Worth T
    Shooter:
    8x10 Format
    One other thing I just thought of. When I traveled out of the US with cameras and stuff, I always took my cameras and junk to the airport and went to the Customs area and found someone to inventory my stuff and give me a piece of paper saying I OWNED this junk BEFORE I left the US. That way there can be no issue bringing it back into the US. I know, I know, paranoid, but that is the way it happens at my house.


    lee\c
     
  19. Aggie

    Aggie Member

    Messages:
    4,925
    Joined:
    Jan 1, 2003
    Location:
    So. Utah
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
    ..
     
  20. chrisl

    chrisl Member

    Messages:
    178
    Joined:
    Jan 30, 2003
    Location:
    Berkeley, Ca
    Thanks Lee, that is a good idea and one I never would've thought of. And who'd a thought that using a tripod to shoot would be an issue when millions of photographs without tripods in tourist towns like Paris. I'll keep a heads up.
    I did up my home owners insurance for all this new gear just in case though.
     
  21. lee

    lee Member

    Messages:
    2,913
    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2002
    Location:
    Fort Worth T
    Shooter:
    8x10 Format
    I have always heard that to use a tripod in the streets of NYC you need a permit. I have talked to several photogs there and no one seems to really know if this is true or just an urban legend. I will post a note on one of the other listserves and see if that applys to Paris also.


    lee\c
     
  22. Aggie

    Aggie Member

    Messages:
    4,925
    Joined:
    Jan 1, 2003
    Location:
    So. Utah
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
    ..
     
  23. Donald Miller

    Donald Miller Member

    Messages:
    6,242
    Joined:
    Dec 21, 2002
    Shooter:
    Large Format
    Along the same lines...I have been hearing rumors that the Peruvian authorities require a tripod permit to photograph at Machu Pichu. The fee of $750.00 U.S. is being assessed to all that are considered involved with a commercial endeavor. Insofar as the authorities are concerned tripod equates to professional which equates to commercial. That fee is per site...so that would mean one permit for Machu Pichu, one for the site of the Sun Temple, another for Cusco etc. Understandably, one could blow the budget in a few days. This regulation was brought on by a film crew that damaged a stone with a dropped gantry at M.P.

    I have since encountered a U.S. photographer who stated that he photographed at Machu Pichu with a 12X20 and purchased no permit. However he needed to carry all of his equipment in at one time. I guess that if one can substantiate a non commercial basis that the fee is waived.

    I think that this speaks to all of us to not cause needless problems to the authorities in the areas where tripods may become obtrusive.
     
  24. lee

    lee Member

    Messages:
    2,913
    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2002
    Location:
    Fort Worth T
    Shooter:
    8x10 Format
    I am going to be posting several replys to the tripod question so hang on:
    <<<Under french confidentially law you theoretically need written permission
    from everyone who will appear in your shot before you take a photo. You'd
    probably be OK with a discreet 35mm, but LF, tripod etc will attract
    attention.
    ----- Original Message -----
    From: "Daniel Bouzard" <Daniel.BOUZARD@wanadoo.fr>
    To: <pure-silver@tundraware.com>
    Sent: Sunday, April 13, 2003 8:58 AM
    Subject: Re: [pure-silver]: tripods in Paris


    To my knowledge there is no problem to use a tripod in Paris except in front
    of some official public buildings like police, ministers....>>>

    Daniel Bouzard
     
  25. lee

    lee Member

    Messages:
    2,913
    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2002
    Location:
    Fort Worth T
    Shooter:
    8x10 Format
    More of the same:
    <<<>Under french confidentially law you theoretically need written permission
    >from everyone who will appear in your shot

    and in many cases also from the owner or architects of the buildings

    > before you take a photo. You'd
    >probably be OK with a discreet 35mm, but LF, tripod etc will attract
    >attention.

    If this is called "confidentially law", that I do not know. It is
    paras 9-2 (everybody has the right to the picture of ....himself) and
    544-1 (... buildings of which he is the owner) of the Code Civile.

    Chris>>>
     
  26. lee

    lee Member

    Messages:
    2,913
    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2002
    Location:
    Fort Worth T
    Shooter:
    8x10 Format
    mos:
    <<<Hi everyboy !
    well, I've read some papers about French regulation pertaining to
    photography...
    Every people has right over is own image, but if in a public place
    nobody can refrain you from making a picture !
    If you plan to use it commercially or not (at an artit's exhibition, for
    exemple) you _do_ need a written authorisation for all things, human or
    not, appearing in the picture. Buildings, boats, volcanos !!! and even
    sheeps in a field !
    Remember that according to French law, a café terrasse is a public
    place, but not the café itself ! and a departement store is definittelly
    a private place !
    As far as I know you do not need anymore a permit to use a tripod on
    Paris streets, but bear in mind that Vigipirate plan is enforced due to
    the terrorit's risks and as an English speaking guy, you will be
    considered suspect by police people... Same individuals all over the
    Earth.
    So I do recomend you deploy a large format camera only at "low risk"
    places and be prepared to discuss somewhat.
    A trick I've used with great success is to give a polaroid at people I
    plan to photograph....
    Keep away from "la grande Arche de la defense" highly copyrighted, so
    photographers are chased .... around and also keep away from official
    buildings, whatever they are !
    Regards
    Christer Almqvist a écrit :>>>