One way or two way rotation with the Jobo?

Discussion in 'B&W: Film, Paper, Chemistry' started by Mahler_one, Apr 6, 2009.

  1. Mahler_one

    Mahler_one Member

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    I happened to be developing some film today, and I noted that the small white "gear" with three "blades" can be adjusted so that the expert tanks will rotate in one direction, or in two directions ( that is, will reverse after after a certain traverse ). Naturally I began to wonder when one would use one way rotation, and when one might use the back and forth rotation. I have been using the back and forth rotation with my expert tanks, but I am careful never to overload the tanks with too much solution....thus, I develop only a few sheets of film at one time. Can anyone speak to when "one way rotation" should be used? I did note that with the one way rotation the speed of the drum is not as easily adjusted, i.e., the rotation appears to be very much faster then I recall, and setting the speed dial does appear to have much affect.
     
  2. jeroldharter

    jeroldharter Member

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    Use the two way. It helps prevent any developing marks and makes agitation even.

    Are you using the 4x5 drum or the 8x10 drum. No need to use a partial tank in my experience with the 4x5 tank. You should be careful to use two hands with the lift. I use my left hand on the lift and my right hand under the drum for support.

    I am not aware of a useful purpose for the one way rotation.
     
  3. ic-racer

    ic-racer Member

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    I agree with jeroldharter. I always figured it was for future compatibility with some yet un-invented process that might require single-direction agitation. Either that or it is for use with their 'rock tumbler' conversion kit...:smile:
     
  4. Mahler_one

    Mahler_one Member

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    Thanks Jerold and ic...have you heard of anyone blowing out a motor on a CPP or CPA, and if so, what was the "cause" ? I would hate to have to give up the Jobo, and so I am very careful Jerold about the weight of the drums ( that is, the weight of the solution added to the drums which translates into the number of sheets developed! ).
     
  5. ic-racer

    ic-racer Member

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    No first-hand experience, but I did read reports on the forums of motors slowing or stopping. I believe there was a "motor upgrade" about 10 years ago, but I don't know much about it. (Serial # 22000 and lower?)
    http://www.jobo.com/jobo_service_analog/us_analog/bulletins/b019.htm
     
  6. Ed Sukach

    Ed Sukach Member

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    Been there ...

    If one experiences the failure of the tank rotation motor to turn, It is probably NOT due to motor failure. There is a rather strange triple-contact relay cammed by the shaft carrying the "three-lobed" reversing cam. The relay contacts there are not enclosed, and over time foreign crap works its way in there, effectively insulating one contact from another.

    The cure is not easy. The control unit must be disassembled (top half pried - with great patience and care - breaking the sealing material from the bottom). Be sure to remove all necessary screws, fasteners and knobs. Follow the shaft to the relay assembly. It will be hard to see - access to it is a genuine challenge!!!
    I suggest you have an assortment of extra-long straight and bent needle-nosed pliers, tweezers, and soft wire, for tool improvisation.
    Once there it IS possible (have faith!) to work tiny strips of paper between the contacts to clean then.

    I have performed this lttle exercise on my JOBO CPP-2 three times, successfully.

    OBTW -- Jobo only advises one-way rotation when developing Kodak "Disc" film. Why? - I have NO idea.
     
  7. Mahler_one

    Mahler_one Member

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    Serial Number

    Ic:

    What a great find!!! Apparently, if one's Jobo serial number is high enough, then the motor and everything "else" should be able to function with the same reliability as the ATL. Since I believe that the ATL is pre-programmed to rotate both ways (???) there should be no issues with undue wear on the Jobo CPP motor with bi-directional rotation as long as one has a unit with a high enough serial number!! MIne is over 24,000 so I am relieved. However, the real importance is if one is considering a used unit, and one uses expert tanks. then the serial number assumes tremendous importance. Ask for the serial number if buying a used CPP/CPA!

    Ic....I really thank you for going to the effort of finding the information, and posting such.

    Ed
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 7, 2009
  8. msage

    msage Subscriber

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    I only process sheet film with my Jobo and use one way only. No problems.
    Michael
     
  9. Mahler_one

    Mahler_one Member

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    PRocess sheet film

    Thanks....what drums to you use on which Jobo model?
     
  10. Oren Grad

    Oren Grad Subscriber

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    In general, two-way is safer. It minimizes the possibility of standing flow patterns which might lead to uneven development.

    I have a CPA-2 with a late serial number, but I'm still really wary of overloading the motor, especially since the machines are no longer being made. With the larger Expert drums (3004, 3005), which are pretty heavy even empty, I generally keep the fluid load to 600 ml or less.
     
  11. Mahler_one

    Mahler_one Member

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    Concerning the fluid loads, same approach as mine Oren. You do know that the machines CAN be repaired at Omega-Satter?

    Ed
     
  12. jp80874

    jp80874 Subscriber

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    No personal experience with Omega-Satter yet, but much has been written here and the LF Forum about L-o-n-g delays and very much higher prices than the Ann Arbor Jobo days.

    I was given a CPP-2 to use as back up parts when the owner discovered an overload heat switch, which had burned out, was $80 and must be ordered from Germany. The owner went back to trays.

    Keeping the weight of the fluids low is difficult if you use Rollo Pyro. The instructions for the developer are for a Liter of water mixed with 15ml A and 30 ml B solutions.
    I use this for 8x10 Expert and 7x17 in a combination of 2830 and 2560 tanks.

    Are you aware that Jobo sells two kinds of grease for all the moving parts and gears? Instructions come with the grease. As with most things, proper maintenance = longer life.

    John Powers
     
  13. Oren Grad

    Oren Grad Subscriber

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    That's great, and I hope they are able to keep at it for a good while yet.

    I've dealt with them re Jobo only once, just after the transition, when I needed a replacement Lift arm. The customer service person I spoke with tried to be helpful, but at the time they were still getting stuff into inventory, waiting for other stuff from Europe, and just generally figuring out which way was up. It took a while to get what I needed. I don't know what the situation is now.
     
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  15. BradS

    BradS Member

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    I have been using a Jobo 3006 tank on a motor base that only turns one way for a few years now. I have probably run nearly 200 sheets of 320TXP and FP4 this way. I always let the tank roll one way. I don't bother to flip the drum. I've never any trouble with un-even development (except when I've mistakenly loaded two sheets in the same tube... :sad: ).
     
  16. Mahler_one

    Mahler_one Member

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    O-S is expensive. However, the "technician" there is usually very helpful, and normally pleasant to deal with. I am using the recommended Jobo grease. I received the unit with an improperly installed transfer gear which had to be replaced. In addition, I broke the gear myself once by absent mindedly trying to mount an expert drum on a motor that was already turning!! Installing such gears is not difficult. O-S usually has the part on hand, but if not, one has to wait quite a while.

    Do any of you turn the motor of while operating the lift to empty chemicals? Someone told me that turning the motor off while using the lift, and starting the motor again when the tank was re-engaged, "might"prevent any possible problems with the gears.

    Interesting about the one way rotation Brad. Is the roller base ON the CPP/CPA processor, or is the base "free standing"?

    Ed
     
  17. BradS

    BradS Member

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    I cannot afford a Jobo machine...:sad: I use a simple motor base intended for use with Color print drums. I think mine is a Unicolor...(or, is it a Beseler?). Anyway, it was designed with the smaller diameter color print drums in mind so, it orginally changed directions too frequently for the larger diameter Jobo Expert drums. My drum wasn't quite making it all the way around...and, I did have un-even development in that case! So, I removed the little switch thingy inside that was changing directions...and now, it always goes in one direction!

    At first I did the "flip the drum every minute" business....soon got tired of that and deceided to just let it go and see what happens. Contrary to conventional wisdom...there was no issue. I don't know if it is just the peculiar way I use the drum or what...maybe, if I used a slightly different volume of chems, I would observe the uneven development that so many otheres insiste is a probelm...but, I never have.

    I actually do think there is a dependency on the volume of chemistry or the geometry difference between the six hole 3006 and the five hole 3010 (and...3005?).
     
  18. Oren Grad

    Oren Grad Subscriber

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    I don't. The trick, of course, is to time the up and down so that uncoupling and coupling occur during the brief pause when the motor changes direction. I guess if you were running it non-stop in a single direction you would have to turn off the motor.
     
  19. jp80874

    jp80874 Subscriber

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    “Do any of you turn the motor of while operating the lift to empty chemicals?”

    I would think that would add undo wear on the switch and motor. That is only a guess. By not doing that the motor runs at the set speed for the duration of the process as opposed to starting and stopping multiple times. With Rollo Pyro following the instructions that would be:
    dump prewash
    dump developer
    dump developer wash once
    dump developer wash twice
    dump fix
    dump fix wash once fast
    dump fix wash twice fast
    dump ten changes of fix wash at two minute intervals

    That would be 17 on and off of the motor as opposed to one on and off for the event. I don't think that would be good for it multiplied by however many times you develop film

    John Powers
     
  20. msage

    msage Subscriber

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    I have a CPA-2. I use the 3005 (10-4x5) and 3010 (5-8x10) drums. My dev. of choice is Rollo Pyro. I have processed over 900 sheets in the last 7-8 years. The CPA-2 was acquired used. The only "problem" was solution not reaching the base side. I now "wet" load and the problem disappeared.
    Michael


     
  21. jeroldharter

    jeroldharter Member

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    Originally Posted by Mahler_one
    Do any of you turn the motor of while operating the lift to empty chemicals?

    That is not necessary. I do take some care when lowering the drum after a dump cycle. I time it, waiting for the cogwheel to change directions so it is essentially stopped and then lower the drum so it does not make the loud snapping noise. I know that is not supposed to hurt anything but I have to believe that something would wear out after thousands of iterations.

    I just received and old CPA-2 from a friend who is out of photography. Looks to be an earlier model than mine and not as well cared for. The cogwheel is white plastic and appears well worn. I have not fired it up yet.
     
  22. Mahler_one

    Mahler_one Member

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    I do recall some information in the instructions that came with RP that occasionally the problems that you describe regarding the base side do occur....the wet loading solution was provided along with the developer instructions from B and S. When I use RP and the expert tanks I do not have the problem with the antihalation backing, etc.

    Regarding off and on cycles while operating the lift, I agree that starting and stoping the motor provides another set of stresses. As I recall, Jobo did NOT recommend turning the motor on and off while operating the lift, and even pointed out that the "grating and breaking sound" as the gears mesh and unmesh is normal. ( see below added AFTER posting).

    Oren....one can usually time the raising of the lift at the end of the cycle in either direction, but lowering the lift to hit the gear exactly at a "still point" is very difficult I think. Can you lower the lift to reliably time the cycle?

    It is a relief to learn of 900 sheets developed without any problems at all....that's alot of film msage! Do you keep the volumes of solutions at a lower level, i.e., develop less sheets at a time?

    Ed

    Added after posting is the following information from Jobo. Most of the information is well known to all of us, but is posted nevertheless for completion and information.

    Instructions for the
    CPA-2 and CPP-2
    JOBO Lift #4072


    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------




    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Introduction

    The JOBO Lift (Part #4072) for both the CPA-2 and the CPP-2 Processors simplifies processing. It eliminates the need to remove the tank or drum during the process. Filling and draining of chemicals and rinse water from the tank or drum is done with the JOBO Lift. This enhancement ends wet hands and messy counter tops, improves timing accuracy, and gives better chemical distribution. The JOBO Lift can be added to the CPA-2 or CPP-2 Processors at any time with a minimum of effort.

    Note:

    These directions augment those of the CPA-2 and CPP-2 Instruction Manual. Please read both sets of instructions before operating your processor with the JOBO Lift accessory attached.

    Index

    Introduction
    Index
    Compatibility
    Improvements
    Installing the Lift
    Mounting the Drive Cog
    Mounting the Lift Handle
    Mounting the Lift on the Motor Head
    Adjusting the Lift for the Tank or Drum to be Used
    Adjusting the Roller Block
    Setting the Coupler
    Operating the Lift
    Lift Care, Tips and Maintenance
    Other Instructional Pages
    Back to Top


    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Compatibility

    The CPA-2 and CPP-2 JOBO lift can be used with any 1500 or 2500 series film tank, 2800 or 3000 series print drum, and any of the Expert Drums (3000 series). Older, discontinued tank or drum models cannot be upgraded to work with the JOBO Lift system, as they used screw type lids that are not suitable for lift coupling.

    For more details on making a tank or drum usable with the JOBO lift, see the page: Cogs and Magnets

    Back to Top


    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Improvements

    The latest version of the lift has improvements in the tank coupling system. You can identify the version you have by examining the tank retention clips (they hold the lid's cog gear to the lift). The current version has black, horizontally aligned clips. The earlier version has white, vertically aligned clips. Both versions work well in holding the tank to the lift. The newer version allows an easier method of replacement for these clips, in the event of a failure.



    [ New Style Lift ]
    [ Pins on Older Lift ]


    In addition to the clips design, the method of tank coupling selection has been changed. The earlier version used a sliding set of pins, that traveled in a diagonal slot, to change from the upper and lower coupling position. The newer version has a red, bell shaped cap, that is transferred from one coupling position to the other instead of the sliding pins.

    Other than these two changes, the instructions below are applicable to all JOBO Lifts for the CPA-2 and CPP-2.

    Note:

    The later version of the lift has two molded holes for the Transfer Gear Set (#95200). Only one set of gears, towards the back of the processor (or right side, if looking towards the motor head) set is installed. The other molded hole is not supplied with a gear set. The lift is not "missing" a set of gears. Do not install another set of gears in this position. The lift will not function correctly with two sets of transfer gears installed. (The same arm piece molding is used with the Auotolab series processors, which do require both sets, to work properly.) For more information about this, go to: Why does my JOBO Lift look like it is missing a transfer gear?

    Back to Top


    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Installing the Lift




    Please follow all these steps to safely and easily install your lift on either the CPA-2 or CPP-2 processors.

    Caution:

    Turn off and unplug your processor before proceeding with the installation procedures listed below.


    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Mounting the Drive Cog

    To install the drive cog, first unscrew the drive magnet. Replace the drive magnet with the correct drive cog (see below) and tighten the screw securely.

    Notes:

    There are two different versions of the drive cog to correspond to the two versions of rotation motors used in both the CPA-2 and CPP-2. Earlier rotation motors have a straight shaft, and the drive cog (or drive magnet) is attached with a slot headed screw. Later motors have a tapered shaft, and the drive cog (or drive magnet) is attached with a hex headed screw. You cannot use a tapered shaft cog with a straight shaft motor (or vice-versa).
    New lifts come supplied with the tapered shaft drive cog. If you want to install a new lift on an older processor with the straight shaft motor, contact JOBO to obtain the correct drive cog.
    The drive cogs on earlier versions of the processors were white. The current version drive cogs are black. The newer black drive cogs are used with all versions of the processors.
    Caution:

    You must replace the white drive cog, supplied with the earlier version of the JOBO Lift, with the current black drive cog, when installing a new style lift on a processor that had the earlier style lift previously installed. Old lifts will work with the black drive cog or white drive cog, but the newer lifts must use the black drive cog. Do not use the newer lift with the original white drive cog on the processor, replace the white drive cog with the newer black drive cog.

    Use part number #95523, a black drive cog, for the straight rotation motor shaft. Tapered shaft rotation motors require a black drive cog, part number #95555.

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Mounting the Lift Handle



    Note the dimple in the end of the metal tube on the end opposite of the knurled cap. Match this dimple to the slot molded in the back side of the handle hub piece. Slide the metal tube fully onto the handle hub and rotate the tube clockwise until resistance is felt. It should not be necessary to force the mounting or the turning of the handle, if they are aligned properly.

    Caution:



    The black, cone shaped piece (about 16mm or 1/2" in size, mounted on the near side of the lift, at the same height as the hub and closer to the drain hose), is a stop used to prevent the puling of the lift handle too far counterclockwise. Do not use this cone as a 'locking' or 'holding' device. Pulling the handle beyond the stop point may break the handle or internal mechanisms.


    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Mounting the Lift on the Motor Head

    Remove the two large upper stainless steel screws located just above the motor drive shaft on the motor head. Do not remove the lower stainless steel screw. If there are washers glued to the motor head under the screws, do not remove them.

    Locate the clip on the lower drain side of the lift. This clip snaps over the left side of the motor head and secures the left side of the lift to the motor housing.



    [ Clip ]

    Place the lift on top of the motor housing. be sure the clip on the left side of the lift is engaged under the lip of the motor housing.

    Raise the right side of the lift slightly, and place the smaller washers in the screw holes left when you removed the stainless steel screws. If there are already are washers on the screw holes, do not remove them. Use these washers instead of the ones supplied with the lift. Releasing the lift will put a small amount of tension on the washers, holding them in place.

    Put the lager washers onto the threads of the black plastic screws. Place the black plastic screws into the lift mounting holes. Put the screw closer to you in place first. The further screw should be started at an upward angle. This second screw will work its way to horizontal as it is screwed in place. The slight amount of tension created by this downward securing of the screw will help to keep the lift in place securely.

    Caution:

    Do not over-tighten these screws. The black plastic screws are designed to hold the lift securely in place, yet break if they are over-tightened. This prevents the serious damage to the lift, that would result from over-tightening the stainless steel screws, if used instead.



    Adjusting the Lift for the Tank or Drum to be Used


    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Adjusting the Roller Block



    [ 1500 Series ]



    [ 2500 and 2800 Series ]



    [ 3000 Series ]

    Slide the roller block along the tubular rails on the lower portion of the Lift. Position it so the black body of the tank being used rests on the rollers as far to the right under the tank as possible. Do not allow the tank to rotate on the Tank lid or module's red ring, or 3000 series drum joints.

    Note:



    You may use the trough roller block that came with the processor in addition to the one mounted on the lift. Although its use is not required, additional support for longer tanks and drums is provided with the second set of rollers. Be sure to adjust the second set the same as the first. (The trough roller block will remain mounted in the upper trough, and is not raised when the lift is raised.)


    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Setting the Coupler



    Select the correct chemical/wash outlet (on the lift arm, looks like two horizontal nozzles one above the other) by plugging the unused outlet with the bell-shaped red cap. (The upper outlet is only used for 3000 series drums; all others use the lower outlet.) Be sure to press the cap firmly in place. If the cap is too loose, it will rub against the tank lid, and may cause the tank to de-couple from the lift.

    Note:



    [ Pins on Older Lift ]

    The earlier version of the JOBO Lift uses a different mechanism to set the selected tank position. No red cap is used. There is a diagonal slot on the side of the lift arm between the two coupling positions. A set of pins project out of this slot. The pins are pulled up for the 3000 series drums, and pulled down for all other tanks and drums. A small white stick protrudes from the position between the couplers. As the pins move, the stick moves in the opposite direction. This stick prevents the mounting of a tank or drum on the unselected coupler. The pins lock into place with quite a lot of pressure. It may take two hands to change positions.

    Back to Top


    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Operating the Lift



    [ Funnel ]

    Tanks and drums are filled immediately by pouring liquids into the built-in funnel in the top of the JOBO Lift. Liquids are drained from the tank or drum by moving the lever of the JOBO Lift counterclockwise to allow the liquid to flow out the hose on the left side of the JOBO Lift.




    Practice mounting and removing a tank or drum on the JOBO Lift, before you start actual processing.

    Note:

    <The retention clips may snap loudly when removing the tank or drum. This sound is normal. When lowering the lift, the cog gear will mesh with the transfer gear. They may make a 'thunk' noise as they engage. This sound is normal too.>

    So, there is no mention of the need to turn the motor on and off while raising and lowering the lift.
    EM
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 8, 2009
  23. Oren Grad

    Oren Grad Subscriber

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    Pretty much, although sometimes when I'm really tired I get a bit sloppy. The key is to lower it most of the way, pause, and then let it fall into place at just the right moment.

    Very important, though, to do it smoothly - that is, never jerk the Lift arm when you've got a drum on the Lift, especially the 3004 or 3005. Ideally, you should support the cradle from underneath as you're lifting and lowering, not have the arm carry all the load. (Yes, this means I'm constantly getting my fingers wet from dunking in the upper water bath.) Underneath the shiny metallic sheath the Lift arm is plastic, and the point where the arm joins the hub is subject to fatigue and can crack if you stress it chronically.
     
  24. jp80874

    jp80874 Subscriber

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    For those of us still using cars/trucks with stick shift (356 Porsches for me), the fine art of shifting when the clutch has failed or double clutching carries over to this. You are equalizing the two gear speeds. It doesn't have to be perfect. I find that I don't have to catch it just at the stop, but can slide the gears in just before and after. It is much easier in one direction, I think counter clockwise rotation. This thinking just expands the window when you can mesh without grinding. Obviously at the stop is best.

    John
     
  25. Mahler_one

    Mahler_one Member

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    Ah....when I was younger I drove a Porsche 911 turbo...now that I am considerably older I would have trouble even getting into that car...let me see if I can find a recording of the engine...I'll shift the lift...seriously, interesting analogy...well done! Interesting that I too find that the counter clockwise rotation fits my eye better....I wonder why.

    Now that I'm thinking about it, let me ask you Jobo users another question: Anyone using the 2840 drums for 11x14 negatives? I know that the subject has been discussed on APUG before, but this group seems to be particularly well informed about Jobo matters, and I wonder if anyone can help me avoid any major gaffes. I'm installing a cog on the tank, reinstalling the filter to make the tank light tight, and proceeding with the volumes necessary for an 11x14 sheet. I'm using FP4, so I don't believe anti-halation will be a problem ( or will it?! ). Anyone have suggestions that might help?

    Ed
     
  26. jp80874

    jp80874 Subscriber

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    Ed,

    I still have the 1964 356 C coupe I bought new. It is off the road now waiting a brake rebuild. My driver is a 1955 pre A 356 Speedster that a friend restored in the 1970s and I bought 1980. They both have the hp of the Turbo's starter motor though. I was 69 last week.

    I mentioned earlier that I use a combined 2830 and 2560 to process two sheets of 7x17 per load. I don’t know the 2840. Is there a relationship where what I have would provide helpful information?

    John