ordorless Stop

Discussion in 'B&W: Film, Paper, Chemistry' started by David Hall, Mar 2, 2003.

  1. David Hall

    David Hall Member

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    After nearly knocking myself unconscious using glacial acetic in one form or another, I noticed some odorless indicator stop at Freestyle.

    Clayton's a pretty reputable company. Anybody use this stuff?

    dgh
     
  2. clogz

    clogz Subscriber

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    This Clayton stuff is not available in my country but I have used a similar product with good results. There's even a variant which changes colour when it gets exhausted.
    So give it a try.
     
  3. docholliday

    docholliday Member

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    Havent' used the Clayton stuff either, but I use Ilford Ilfostop often. It's based on Citric Acid instead of acetic acid, so it doesn't have the odor. However, the dilution is lower (the citric is weaker) and the print load is lower per litre.

    Works good, though. It has the phenolthalein indicator also. And, hell, it citric acid...I use the citric acid for preserving fruit as a supplement when I run out and I need some quickly.
     
  4. Robert

    Robert Member

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    Depends on what you're used to. Don't you put vinegar on your chips? Your fish?-))) I checked the citric acid sold by the local grocery store for canning. It's mostly sugar. I think you can buy bulk pure citric acid for very little from the same people that supply the food processing industry.
     
  5. avandesande

    avandesande Member

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    I mix a couple teaspoons of citric acid in 2l of water and toss at the end of the session. It dissolves very easily. Artcraft chemicals has it pretty cheap.
     
  6. Ole

    Ole Moderator Staff Member

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    Citric acid or sodium bisulfite are both cheaper and better than "premixed" stop. Acetic acid is too strong, and tends to produce pinholes if the developer contains carbonate.

    Water bath is the cheapest of all, besides being completely odourless. And it's particularly recommended when using alkaline fix and/or tanning developers.
     
  7. Ed Sukach

    Ed Sukach Member

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    The only place I use shortstop now is immediately after the Color Developer and before Bleach-Fix in color printing. Developer holdover - even after a water wash, is simply too great for me in RA-4 printing.

    Check Ilford. Last I knew, they were NOT recommending the use of an acid shortstop in black and white film developing (due to the danger for pinholes), substituting a water wash instead.

    I've heard those who complain about the odor of acetic acid. Possibly a more dilute mix than the standard - 16ml per liter of water would be less offensive.

    Come to think of it ... I once used common white vinegar diluted 1:4 to 1:10 instead of the expensive photographic stuff.
     
  8. blansky

    blansky Subscriber

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    David:

    I too, use the Ilfostop. Great stuff. Lately howeverI have been using TF-4 alkaline fix which requires only a water stop.

    Before that I used to use stop bath and fix in their trays with plexiglas covers over them so the fumes were virtually unnoticeable.

    I still have plexiglas covers for all my trays that use strong substances like fix, selenium, etc. Even with proper ventilation, leaning over the trays while working gave me more of a snoutfull than I liked.

    Michael McBlane
     
  9. Aggie

    Aggie Member

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    HMM none of you guys would like the few comments about this thread I have made here at home...Of course I had to stop laughing first! MEN complaing about smell? excuse me? since when has a little smell bothered the male of the species? But then you have not had to walk into a darkroom behind a guy who has not had a shower or such in a week, with no usage of deoderant. Now that stinks. It even permeates past the stop bath odor. Come on guys toughen up!
     
  10. blansky

    blansky Subscriber

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    Aggie:

    Obviously you have not spent enough time around civilized men. Men who were properly housebroken by their mothers or wives. You truly do need to get out more.

    In fact while I write this I'm soaking in a bubble bath surrounded by potpourri. I'm....sh*t, I just dropped my laptop in the water......

    I'll get back to you.........

    Michael McBlane
     
  11. Les McLean

    Les McLean Subscriber

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    I recently stopped using stop bath for both film and paper in favour of plain old water and the only thing I miss is the smell, I'm just addicted to it. Aggie, if you ever get to visit my darkroom when you came to the UK I promise that I shower every day.
     
  12. G O'Connor

    G O'Connor Member

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    Why not just get Sprint and enjoy a vanilla smelling stop ; )
     
  13. David Hall

    David Hall Member

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    I should have been more clear.

    I use a water bath and TF4 fixer for film, always. The stop is for Azo, because a water bath would continue the development too long. So it's just for paper. And, if it matters..I use plain thiosulfate and bisulfite and then plain thio to fix the paper.

    But after reading the interesting responses, I do have a question...isn't citric acid a developer, also? If you use it as a developer AND as a stop, how does the medium (film in that case, I guess) know when to stop developing???

    I would be interested in making some rapid odorless top myself, if anyone has a good formula.

    Thanks!

    dgh
     
  14. Robert

    Robert Member

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    Ascorbic acid is a developer. Never heard of citric acid. For Ascorbic I assume since it's allegedly something that can be subbed for hydroquine that it acts in the same way. In other words it only develops with high pH levels. 11?? So in a stop bath it wouldn't develop. I guess you could use it for both your developer and stop then .
     
  15. Ole

    Ole Moderator Staff Member

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    Robert is right. The developer is ascorbic acid, which works best in relatively high pH solutions.

    Citric acid is simply a weak organic acid, which is what you want for a stop. Since it smells of citrus (lemon), most people find it less (ob)noxious than vinegar
     
  16. David Hall

    David Hall Member

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    You know, I think I was thinking of Citric Acid as vitamin C. I forget that it's ascorbic.

    dgh
     
  17. Donald Miller

    Donald Miller Member

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    David, Funny, I almost made the same mistake the other day...Caught myself just before I let my mouth overload my....Oh well, you know what I mean.
     
  18. David Hall

    David Hall Member

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    So if I were to use citric acid as a stop, what would I need? And in what kind of dilution? I am actually a fan of water baths, so I would want to use just enough to stop development and keep the fixer fresher.

    dgh
     
  19. Ole

    Ole Moderator Staff Member

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    Had a quick look in the literature yesterday. Seems that 15g citric acid to 1liter water should do the trick. Don't know how long it will last, but citric acid is cheap and can be bought in most supermarkets...
     
  20. Aggie

    Aggie Member

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    used to preserve the color and such in fruit while preparing it to can....omg another area I have lots of knowledge in,,,home canning,,,darn farm girl upbringing.
     
  21. avandesande

    avandesande Member

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    Concentraion of acid (for neutralization) is not that important, especially with a weak acid like citric acid. You can re-use your bath, so as OleTj mentioned you can use 15g per liter.
    If you don't feel like saving it, a 3 or 4 grams will do. This is at least enough to neutralize a dozen or so 8x10 negatives.
     
  22. Robert

    Robert Member

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    Does the pH of the developer matter? I use D23 which isn't very alkaline. Others use developers which are much more so.
     
  23. avandesande

    avandesande Member

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    Actually PH doesn't really correlate to the amount of acid needed to neutralize different bases. Developers tend to have buffering agents in them as well which makes thing even more complicated.
    You can tell when the base on sheet film is properly neutralized, the sheet is slippery in the developer (bases always feel this way) and when you put it in the stop, the slipperyness rapidly dissapates. If this doesn't happen, you know that the stop is spent.