Ortho look with pan film?

Discussion in 'B&W: Film, Paper, Chemistry' started by EASmithV, Aug 10, 2009.

  1. EASmithV

    EASmithV Member

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    I know this is probably a really simple, dumb question, but if I use a red filter with Pan film, can I make it look like it has Ortho properties?
     
  2. 2F/2F

    2F/2F Member

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    Not at all. It will look like exactly the opposite of an ortho film if you use a red filter. Try a blue filter instead.
     
  3. Ken N

    Ken N Member

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    Blue, Green or Cyan filters should do it. Just be sure to add a little exposure because pan films are not as sensitive to the blue-green spectrum.
     
  4. cowanw

    cowanw Member

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    Actualy, I think pan films remain more sensitive to blue, Otherwise you would not use a yellow filter to darken blue sky in order to differentiate it from white clouds.
    However you are minusing yellow and so subjects other than blue may need some thought to exposure.
    Regards
    Bill
     
  5. jnanian

    jnanian Advertiser Advertiser

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    you might enjoy your results using
    yellow+orange filters ...
     
  6. jd callow

    jd callow Moderator Staff Member Moderator

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    I think Cyan of about 60 to 90cc should be close. You will want a minus red filter (red being equal parts yellow and magenta and the bits missing from ortho sensitivity if I have my facts right) and 90cc should do it, but might be over kill.

    BTW it is not a dumb question but an excellent one.
     
  7. Neanderman

    Neanderman Member

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    Try a Wratten 44 or 44A. They have similar minus-red characteristics, but the 44 also cuts UV.

    Ed
     
  8. Herzeleid

    Herzeleid Member

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    Out of curiosity...

    What if, let's say I use a a heavily blue gelled light (strobe or cont.). Is it possible to get something close to "ortho" look. I know I am not accounting the reflection or cutting the red and green light like filter does but do you thing is it possible or somewhat close to it.
    Just an idea instead of using color filters. I can't try it at the moment because my flash is away :D
     
  9. Mike1234

    Mike1234 Inactive

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    If I recall correctly, Ed has it right with the Wratten 44. I have a whole box full of Kodak Wratten gels stuffed away somewhere and I might have some information with them. I'll try to find them.
     
  10. Joe VanCleave

    Joe VanCleave Member

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    I must confess some degree of ignorance on the topic of ortho film, which is ironic since I've shot on paper negatives for years in pinhole and LF box cameras, but at least with paper negatives much of the look is due to a sensitivity to deep blue and UV. I'm not sure if classic "ortho" film exhibits a UV sensitivity; I recall reading in E.Weston's daybooks the term "actinic" cropped up frequently, which I believe refers to UV sensitivity.

    Many of the early photographic emulsions in photography's formative years were UV sensitive. I remember a session of shooting paper negatives at the Sandstone Overlook in the El Malpais National Monument in western New Mexico; at the Park ranger's visitor center they have a series of reprints, mounted on foamcore panels, printed from glass plate negatives of native American Pueblo people from the mid-late 19th century; the thing that strikes me is the almost negroid skin complexion captured in these old negatives, due to the lack of brown/red sensitivity in these early emulsions. I have since made glass-lens portraits of hispanic people using paper negatives that exhibit similar tonal qualities. Again, I'm not certain if these are tonal qualities shared with "ortho" films, or if these are unique to actinic emulsions exclusively.

    ~Joe
     
  11. jd callow

    jd callow Moderator Staff Member Moderator

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    I believe that the Wratten 44 is a minus red filter and therefore would be close to Ortho, but it may still allow yellow through. Adding Gels to the lights won't be the same as the idea is cut off red and yellow bandwidths as gels on lights won't keep those colours from reaching the film.

    I'm not sure if my earlier advice recommending a cyan filter is the same thing. I think what needs to be done is to compare the spectral sensitivity of ortho to the masking/pass through ability of a given filter.
     
  12. Mike1234

    Mike1234 Inactive

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    A Wratten 44 is a deep cyan filter. Cyan is opposite of red so it indeed does block most red. I don't think it will pass much yellow either. We were talking about using the filter at the lens... at least I assumed this.
     
  13. jd callow

    jd callow Moderator Staff Member Moderator

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    Mike
    With regard to my comment on putting gels on lights I was referring to an earlier post where the poster asked if this was a viable alternative. The Wratten 44 may have some blue in it, but I suspect that it is not a minus yellow which is what I believe would be needed in conjunction with a minus red to achieve an ortho look. I could be wrong as i do not know what exactly ortho is sensitive to nor do I know what exactly a Wratten 44 will block or pass.
     
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  15. gainer

    gainer Subscriber

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    I think a green filter used to be specified for this purpose. It's been a long, long time. A green filter will keep red roses in green foliage from looking like garbage.
     
  16. Mike1234

    Mike1234 Inactive

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    JD... ahh yes, forgot about the post asking about filtering the lights.

    With regard to the #44 passing yellow, going from memory (not reliable anymore), it blocks most yellow as well as red light... close enough anyway. A green filter passes quite a bit of yellow light and bright red turns very dark (even black-ish) depending on how deep red the rose is and how deep green the filter is. I know there was a #58 deep green but I can't remember if there were darker ones... maybe a #61??
     
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  17. Mike1234

    Mike1234 Inactive

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  18. Sirius Glass

    Sirius Glass Subscriber

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  19. 2F/2F

    2F/2F Member

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    Looks like a #47A would be the best choice, as opposed to the blue I recommended earlier. It passes 380 - 520 nM instead of 400 - 470 nM like the #47B.

    I use an 80A for a blue filter. I guess it is because I am cheap, and I already have it.
     
  20. Mike1234

    Mike1234 Inactive

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    I might have a 47A. I've been searching for my Wratten filter box to look for other filters but I haven't located it yet. I'll try again tonight.
     
  21. jd callow

    jd callow Moderator Staff Member Moderator

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    Again we would need toknow what Ortho is sensitive to, but it appears that the 47 (410-500) more closly covers the area I understand as being the portion that Ortho is blind to Yellows through red .
     
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  22. Sirius Glass

    Sirius Glass Subscriber

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    Would an 80A filter work? I do not know its bandpass characteristics.

    Steve
     
  23. 2F/2F

    2F/2F Member

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    Ilford Otho is sensitive from about 350 - 550 nM to my recollection. Not sure about Rollei, or about any of the graphic arts films, such as Kodalith or Arista APHS, etc.

    Steve,

    I think an 80A boosts the right cool wavelengths in relation to the warm ones, but as it is a color conversion filter, it does not totally block the warm light as well. All it does it tweak the balance between warm and cool. I think as much as 20% of yellows through reds pass through an 80A.
     
  24. 2F/2F

    2F/2F Member

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    I just found this on an astronomy Website: http://www.stellarjourney.com/images/spect2.gif

    I appears that a #47 filter will give a pan film almost exactly the same look as Ilford Ortho, not counting grain and sharpness, of course.

    Both filters seem to pass IR as well. Interesting...
     
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  25. Sirius Glass

    Sirius Glass Subscriber

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    Thanks, I knew it was for color correction under tungston lights, so it was, if you will, a shot in the dark [pun intended].

    Steve
     
  26. 2F/2F

    2F/2F Member

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    FWIW, it is the only blue filter I have ever used on b/w film, so I can tell you that it does indeed work. It just does not cut out warm light as severely as the 47 series. I always knew there was a better blue filter to use, but with as infrequently as I use a blue filter, I always just make do with the 80A when I need one, since it is already in the kit.