ORWO NP18. Devtime anyone??

Discussion in 'B&W: Film, Paper, Chemistry' started by tormod, Sep 25, 2006.

  1. tormod

    tormod Member

    Messages:
    42
    Joined:
    Oct 26, 2005
    Location:
    Norway
    Shooter:
    Medium Format
    Hi!

    A old friend of mine found an old camera from he was a young boy, a kodak box camera.

    In this camera we found a film, an ORWO NP18 negativ-film, 50 ASA.

    Is there anyone that knows what developer and times I should use to maybe find some images on the film?

    I can't find the film in the Massive Dev Chart.
    of the NP series, only Orwopan NP15, Orwopan NP20/NP22 and Orwopan NP27/NP30 is documentet there. ( http://www.digitaltruth.com/chart/old/orwo_old.html )

    Best regards
    Tormod
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 25, 2006
  2. Photo Engineer

    Photo Engineer Subscriber

    Messages:
    25,904
    Joined:
    Apr 19, 2005
    Location:
    Rochester, NY
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
    It used proprietary chemistry. I can probably dig up the formulas if you wish, but I think it would be futile at this time to try a color process. A B&W process might be better.

    PE
     
  3. htmlguru4242

    htmlguru4242 Member

    Messages:
    973
    Joined:
    Aug 9, 2005
    Location:
    Sandy Hook,
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
    Isn't NP-18 Black and white? From what I've seen, the color film is NC-18.

    I may be wrong, but ...
     
  4. Ole

    Ole Moderator Staff Member Moderator

    Messages:
    9,281
    Joined:
    Sep 9, 2002
    Location:
    Bergen, Norw
    Shooter:
    Large Format
    I think I would treat it as Efke R17, now known as Efke (or Adox) R50. The "18" should be the DIN speed, just like the "17" was in the Efke equivalent. Since these films were based on the same technology, it shouldn't be too far off.
     
  5. ZorkiKat

    ZorkiKat Member

    Messages:
    346
    Joined:
    Jun 6, 2006
    Location:
    Manila PHILI
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
    ORWO N(egativ) P(an) 18 is BW and can be treated with conventional BW developers.

    When it was fresh, recommended developing time (from "ORWO-Rezepte Instruction #1100) at 20C was 9-11 mins in R09 (Rodinal) 1+40 or 10-12 mins in ORWO 19 (D76).

    Jay
     
  6. ZorkiKat

    ZorkiKat Member

    Messages:
    346
    Joined:
    Jun 6, 2006
    Location:
    Manila PHILI
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
    NP were panchromatic negative films. The numbers which followed the letters were the film's DIN speed.

    Earlier on, all ORWO colour (negative or reversal) films were known as ORWOcolor. In time, the reversal types were renamed ORWOchrom.

    Colour negative films were marked NC. From the ORWO list, apparently only one type of colour negative film was made for still cameras- "NC19". The 19 represents the film's DIN speed. For motion pictures, there was the NC-3.

    Reversal films carried the letter "U" in their designation. They were either UT for daylight (T="tageslicht") or UK for artificial, tungsten lighting (K="kunstlicht"?). The ORWO list described UT15, UK17, UT18 and UT20 'amateur' reversal films for still cameras.

    Jay
     
  7. Photo Engineer

    Photo Engineer Subscriber

    Messages:
    25,904
    Joined:
    Apr 19, 2005
    Location:
    Rochester, NY
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
    As you can see, I mistook NP for NC. I have formulas for NC though if anyone is interested.

    Sorry.

    PE
     
  8. ZorkiKat

    ZorkiKat Member

    Messages:
    346
    Joined:
    Jun 6, 2006
    Location:
    Manila PHILI
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
    HI PE

    It's amazing that the ORWOcolor processes hardly changed from the original Agfacolor processes. They remained faithful to the original until their last days, and stuck with it. Process ORWO 5166 for ORWOcolor NC is exactly the same as Agfacolor Process for Agfacolor CN17. The steps and times are identical- including the unusually long 15-minute water wash in step 2.

    The colour developer (ORWOCOLOR 15) seems hard to make: there's some ingredients there which seem so exotic (eg, diethyl-p phenylene diamine sulphate; any relation to modern CD types?). The rest don't seem to be complex though. Bleach is ordinary ferricyanide-bromide and fix is just plain thiosulphate 20% solution.

    Jay
     
  9. hka

    hka Member

    Messages:
    2,147
    Joined:
    Dec 21, 2004
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
    ORWO NP18 is indeed an B&W film. It is equivalent with films like Ilford FP3, Kodak Verichrome Pan, Plus X, ADOX KB 21, R21 or Fuji Neopan S, SS. Recommended dev.time in D76 is 10 min. - temp. at least 18 C.
     
  10. Ole

    Ole Moderator Staff Member Moderator

    Messages:
    9,281
    Joined:
    Sep 9, 2002
    Location:
    Bergen, Norw
    Shooter:
    Large Format
    Can anyone still develop that? The reason I ask is that there's a 12 sheet film pack in my freezer - expiry date 1957, but it might still be interesting to see if it's possible to get an image from it!
     
  11. Photo Engineer

    Photo Engineer Subscriber

    Messages:
    25,904
    Joined:
    Apr 19, 2005
    Location:
    Rochester, NY
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
    Jay;

    Yes, the long water washes were 'legendary' for the Agfa, Orwo and also the Gevaert products of the 40s, 50s and 60s. Soviet films, based on Orwo films, were also very similar. At EK, we examined the process and found that the thick film or paper structure was causing severe underdevelopment of the bottom layer, and the wash allowed that layer to catch up while slowing down the others.

    In addition, it diluted the remaining developer and induced edge effects and interimage effects somewhat like the orange mask in current color negative films.

    Very interesting process. Obsolete now in the face of new films with thin structures and more active couplers.

    PE
     
  12. htmlguru4242

    htmlguru4242 Member

    Messages:
    973
    Joined:
    Aug 9, 2005
    Location:
    Sandy Hook,
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
    diethyl-p phenylene diamine sulphate sounds similar to the CD-* compounds used today; I believe that that one is CD-1; I recall reading it somewhere. I'm neither a chemistry or old film expert, though.

    PE, just out of curiosity, if you have the formulas for this handy, it'd be interesting to see them posted here...
     
  13. Photo Engineer

    Photo Engineer Subscriber

    Messages:
    25,904
    Joined:
    Apr 19, 2005
    Location:
    Rochester, NY
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
    It is CD1 which is the most toxic (in the sense of causing skin rashes and other allergic reations - not in terms of the toxicity of say HCN (cyanide)) of all color developers and the one with the worst dye stability (IIRC).

    Yes, I have the formulas somewhere, but it will take a while to find them and arrange them for posting. I think that they should go in the formulas area as well and that is not operational.

    I'll try to fit it in next week or the week after.

    PE
     
  14. ZorkiKat

    ZorkiKat Member

    Messages:
    346
    Joined:
    Jun 6, 2006
    Location:
    Manila PHILI
    Shooter:
    Multi Format

    Hi PE

    The ORWO Formulae mentioned something to the same effect. During the long washes, some "densities" were formed. I would assume that the the mask was among those densities quoted.

    Agfacolor CN17 had a bright yellow mask, unlike the old Kodak negatives I've seen. I've printed (both on RA-4 and through scanning) some old CN17 negatives of my mother's snapshots from the 1960s. Prints made at the time now show only a purple mush. I was quite surprised that the old negatives yielded excellent colour prints on modern RA-4 paper. Same could be said from the digitally produced positives. Hues and tones paled in comparison with current colour negatives, but still the colours were there.

    Jay
     
  15. ZorkiKat

    ZorkiKat Member

    Messages:
    346
    Joined:
    Jun 6, 2006
    Location:
    Manila PHILI
    Shooter:
    Multi Format

    htmlguru,

    here's the colour developer formula from ORWO-FORMULAE for ORWOcolor NC.

    "ORWOCOLOR 15 Color developer" (to make 1 litre)

    A901 (water softening agent?)....3 g
    Hydroxilamine sulphate....1,2 g
    Diethyl-p-phenylene diamine sulphate....3 g
    Potassium Carbonate....75 g
    Sodium Sulphite....2 g
    Potassium Bromide....2,5 g
    Nitrobenzimidazol Nitrate...(add only if required for certain types of film)

    pH value 10,9 +/_ 0,1

    Jay
     
  16. htmlguru4242

    htmlguru4242 Member

    Messages:
    973
    Joined:
    Aug 9, 2005
    Location:
    Sandy Hook,
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
    Thanks for posting hte formula

    That's a fairly simple developer ... I'm assuming the rest of the process is just a bleach-fix-stabilize-wash like more modern color processes?
     
  17. ZorkiKat

    ZorkiKat Member

    Messages:
    346
    Joined:
    Jun 6, 2006
    Location:
    Manila PHILI
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
    The rest of the steps is fairly simple. ORWO 5166 used a ferricyanide+bromide bleach, a neutral 20% hypo fix, and a formaldehyd stabliser.

    Jay
     
  18. Lichtbildner

    Lichtbildner Member

    Messages:
    3
    Joined:
    Sep 22, 2005
    Location:
    Dresden / Sa
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
  19. htmlguru4242

    htmlguru4242 Member

    Messages:
    973
    Joined:
    Aug 9, 2005
    Location:
    Sandy Hook,
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
    How are the results from these films; does anyone have any examples or are there any online?
     
  20. ZorkiKat

    ZorkiKat Member

    Messages:
    346
    Joined:
    Jun 6, 2006
    Location:
    Manila PHILI
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
    I've one frame of ORWOchrom which came with an FSU duplicating device. The frame looks original, not a copy made by the device. Looks like a normal transparency, nothing odd about its colour rendering or such. It has that "golden afternoon" (can't think of a better description for that unique Agfacolor rendering) light look.

    About a couple of years ago, I also printed some old snapshots taken on 40+ year old Agfacolor CN17 negatives. The new prints also look quite OK, doesn't seem to be missing colours, hues just aren't as punchy as those of contemporary prints we're used to seeing now.

    Try to find the 1943 "Baron Munchhausen" (UFA) on DVD. It was shot in glorious Agfacolor. It was the Goebbels answer to Hollywood's Technicolor "Wizard of Oz". Though the DVD has been restored somewhat, the restorers made sure that the original Agfacolor palette's unique traits were preserved. They noted that Agfacolor was more pastel and not as garish as three-strip Technicolor. Quite true. The DVD has a special feature which includes cuts from other 1930s-1940s Agfacolor features. Some in their original, faded states which can still suggest how the originals were.

    Jay