Paterson System 4, 2-reel to 5-reel timing

Discussion in 'B&W: Film, Paper, Chemistry' started by Yoricko, Feb 16, 2011.

  1. Yoricko

    Yoricko Member

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    Just a simple topic. Any differences in development timings?
     
  2. Ian Grant

    Ian Grant Subscriber

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    In general no the number of films makes no difference at all.

    The exception is if using highly dilute developers ID-011/D76/Xtol etc at 1+3, Rodinal at 1+100 maintaining sufficient developing agents. There should be 100ml of D76 stock per film so a minimum of 400ml per film, not an issue with 120 films but a potential issue with a tank full of 35mm reels.

    Ian
     
  3. Rick A

    Rick A Subscriber

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    Filling and emptying the tank and getting even development with all reels. Its best to have the developer in the tank, then submerge all the reels in one shot.
     
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  4. Ian Grant

    Ian Grant Subscriber

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    Rick, I've been using those tanks for over 40 years and filling the 5 reel tanks is not an issue at all except perhaps for C41 colour, I use similar sized Jobo tanks for 5x4.

    Ian
     
  5. Yoricko

    Yoricko Member

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    Thanks for the helpful reply.

    Does HC-110 (Dil. H / 1:63) apply to that list of exceptions? Seems pretty dilute to me, hahaha.
     
  6. Ian Grant

    Ian Grant Subscriber

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    HC-110 at Dil H should be OK, the HC stands for High Concentration.

    Be aware that the US and European versions of HC-110 aren't (or weren't) the same concentration so need different dilution. Sounds confusing but Ilford sell their equivalents as Ilfotec HC and LC (Low Concentration) which avoids the confusion

    US version Dil H is 1:63
    European version Dil H is 1:19

    Ian
     
  7. lensman_nh

    lensman_nh Member

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    A problem with stainless tanks for sure, but not the paterson tanks

    The system 4 tanks fill and emtpy very, very fast. Almost as if no lid was in place in fact. Steve Achell likes them for that reason, as do I.
     
  8. MattKing

    MattKing Subscriber

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    If you are using HC-110 dilution H, you need approximately 380ml of working solution for each roll, in order to have 6 ml of concentrate in there for each roll.

    So the dilution issue can arise with 35mm film.

    I use the word "approximately" because the 6 ml requirement is Kodak's recommendation, which clearly includes some safety room.
     
  9. Ian Grant

    Ian Grant Subscriber

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    While Paterson state 275ml per 35mm spiral (reel) most people use 300ml as the maths is easier. That works out at 4.75ml of US concentrate for Dilution H and that's a reasonable amount - may be wrong thats from memory.

    I have the figures for developer exhaustion, how much Dev agents get used up to process a film, Ilford published a very interesting set of papers when they were formulating Autophen a PQ version of ID-11/D76 during the 1950's.

    That data is transferable to other developer formulae although modern films contain less silver and aren't processed to as high a Gamma (contrast) now compared to the 1950's. That gives a larger safety factor.

    Ian
     
  10. Yoricko

    Yoricko Member

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    Thanks for the help guys. Gonna get my backlogged rolls developed soon.
     
  11. 2F/2F

    2F/2F Member

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    I was about to mention the safety margin, but saw that you did it yourself.

    I read some Kodak data sheet once that said 6 mL is the recommended minimum, but only 4 mL of syrup are actually used up by a properly exposed average roll developed normally.

    I have used three mL per roll and had no problems achieving normal contrast, though.

    One of my thoughts on the issue is that manufacturers' stated minimums can be halved without any consequences; you can achieve normal contrast, and in all other ways get a negative that is just as properly developed as you would get from meeting the stated minimums. This is just based on my own experience, and may not be true with some oddball developers, though.

    The other of my thoughts on the issues are that one who is using highly dilute developers is perhaps (if not likely) doing so in order to purposefully "suffer" some of these consequences anyhow; the stated minimums are for those seeking standard negatives developed to a similar contrast as that achieved by Kodak in its testing, but for those looking for something else, breaking the "rule" here is a special-purpose technique.

    240 mL/64 = 3.75 mL, so using dilution H with 240 mL per roll is safe without a question in my book.

    FWIW the guy who wrote The Darkroom Cookbook is fairly adamant that one should use 500 mL/16 U.S. oz. and no less to develop a single roll. For PMK pyro, the Formulary data sheet states the same thing. This does not improve my negatives in any way, shape, or form that I can see, and I personally find it to be quite wasteful – mainly of time, but also of chemistry. I don't do enough processing as it is; having to do twice as much would be "disastrous," in terms of my stockpiling of exposed film to be processed.
     
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  12. Yoricko

    Yoricko Member

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    Personally I've been developing my rolls with 10ml developer and 630ml water for 2 rolls each batch. No problem.

    I find any amount less than 4ml is hard to gauge accurately with simple syringes and measuring cylinders.
     
  13. MattKing

    MattKing Subscriber

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    The type of shots on your rolls might matter as well. If you shoot a bunch of high key portraits that you have over-exposed and are over-developing to enhance grain, the HC-110 might get used up!