Petition now online for Supra Endura

Discussion in 'Color: Film, Paper, and Chemistry' started by DanielStone, Oct 21, 2009.

  1. DanielStone

    DanielStone Member

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    hey guys,

    started this one this morning.

    http://new.ipetitions.com/petition/savesupraendura/

    Looking for sponsors as well. APUG, could you step up and give us your support? :smile:

    Anyone else who might know of a sponsor who would support this, please, lets get them onboard!!!

    blessings,

    Dan
     
  2. DanielStone

    DanielStone Member

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    how many of you have a fax number? I can fax you a letter I wrote, and I'm in the middle of faxing it to every Calumet and Samys camera location here in the US.

    I know there are many other retailers than this, such as Freestyle(I'll be faxing one or two to them soon :smile:).

    PM me with your fax number, and I'll fax it to you.

    -Dan
     
  3. DanielStone

    DanielStone Member

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    ok, we're at 5 signatures so far, lets get 20 by the end of the day!

    let all your friends know!

    -Dan
     
  4. MikeSeb

    MikeSeb Member

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    This is predictable. Happens every time. Big Company, faced with a poorly-selling, money-losing product, discontinues it.

    Afficionados of the product---acting on the quaint belief that only BC's ignorance of the heretofore-hidden, massive-yet-stealthy grass-roots affection for the product (ignoring the actual hard fiscal evidence of its dismal sales) prompted the discontinuance---mounts a petition drive to "save" a product no one wanted enough to buy in the first place.

    BC either soldiers on a bit longer, hemorrhaging money all the while, until the momentary sales blip born of the petition drive subsides and sales return to an even lower baseline, with the company in worse shape than before. Or BC ignores the petitioners' pleas, and is scourged online and threatened with boycotts for its failure to "support" whatever activity its product enabled.

    It's been said many times: the only petition that matters is the cash register, like it or not. If you like a product, buy it and use it. Company management would be insane and derelict to continue wasting its shareholders' resources on money-losing products.

    Nothing personal, Dan.
     
  5. Greg Davis

    Greg Davis Subscriber

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    It is time Kodak adapts to demand. Discontinuing every product because sales are lower isn't the only solution. Smaller production to meet demand is another option. Kodak didn't always make huge runs of their products. They grew as demand grew. If the demand goes down, why stop making things altogether? I am buying their products. But I can't buy it if they don't make it.

    There is an intense interest among my students to learn how to print color. They may not have that opportunity before they even graduate once the paper is off the shelves. Understand, Mike, that Supra is the last paper in sheet form. Anyone who wants to use RA-4 in the future must purchase a roll and cut it. That is not conducive to trying things. Nobody is going to invest in a roll to try printing for the first time.

    Kodak is only losing money because they insist on making more than what they can sell. They can make less and turn a smaller profit, or they can stop producing and make no profit. They continue to choose the latter.
     
  6. BradS

    BradS Subscriber

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    LOL!
     
  7. MikeSeb

    MikeSeb Member

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    I'm sure you know better than Kodak, Greg, what they "need" to do. What a relief.
     
  8. Greg Davis

    Greg Davis Subscriber

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    I'm sorry you aren't passionate enough to fight for analog photography, Mike. I hope you enjoy your digital cameras.
     
  9. frotog

    frotog Member

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    I spoke to a couple reps in Kodak professional regarding the phasing out of Supra. They acknowledged how important their analogue users are to the overall brand. Contrary to what you think, big business is almost as mindful of brand image as they are the bottom line. Kodak has demonstrated this on a number of occasions since the dawn of the digital revolution with adverts for their traditional materials and the artists who use them (a friend of mine was once featured in a portra nc campaign). This kind of boutique branding is common and it is not unusual for the commodity to be unprofitable in strictly monetary terms. You'll see this with heritage brand products, art books in the publishing world, the majority of small run fashion magazines, etc.
     
  10. Ektagraphic

    Ektagraphic Member

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    Signed.
     
  11. BradS

    BradS Subscriber

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    I wonder how many of these petitioners have ever worked for a multi-billion dollar a year corporation....let alone run one. I find the whole effort exceedingly naive at best.

    Good luck fellas.
     
  12. MattKing

    MattKing Subscriber

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    When you are a corporation like Kodak that sells mostly through a dealer network, it never hurts to have additional end-user input.

    It may be that with enough interest, you may see something like the ULF special order for B&W film.

    Matt
     
  13. frotog

    frotog Member

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    And at worst...? Do you really think that the individuals who are rallying to have their voices heard by a large corporation don't understand this? Your critique reveals nothing other than the Schadenfreude that begat it.
     
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  15. hrst

    hrst Member

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    Mike, Brad, I think that you have badly misunderstood something.

    The purpose of this kind of petition is to tell what we want. It is not the same as saying "I know better". No one has claimed to have worked for a multi-billion dollar a year corporation; we are all individual consumers who just use the products. This is completely normal business; client telling what they want to a vendor, and then the vendor makes its decision. There are of course many ways to tell what we want, the most important being what Mike said, buying the products. But it's not the only way in certain situations. We can also talk to the manufacturers, tell them what we want.

    So, I think that in fact, your approaches are quite twisted, not our petitioners. This is just communication.
     
  16. MikeSeb

    MikeSeb Member

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    Ouch! Zowee! Are we in the schoolyard here?

    90% of my work is shot on film, but I do "enjoy" my digital camera when it's the right tool for the job. What I enjoy even more is doing useful things---as opposed to empty feel-good gestures like protests and petitions---that might materially advance the cause of analog photography. Things like demonstrating to others via my own work---or so I immodestly hope---what is possible with an analog or hybrid workflow; how such methods can produce work of a beauty and permanence that puts digital to shame; and why others might want to do likewise in their own work. And I buy the materials I need to make it happen, which does my part to keep the manufacturers making those things.

    So Greg, you might want to learn more before you pronounce upon anither's "passion". My "passion" is for results, not gestures.
     
  17. hrst

    hrst Member

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    I've been reading APUG quite actively this year, surfing also through the old threads. The incredible thing here is that there are almost no trolls or troublemakers like on many Finnish internet forums! I really love APUG for this particular reason and that's why I also became a subscriber.

    Now I feel that I bumped into the first troublemakers at APUG. It's not about what you think and believe, but about how you treat your fellowmen. Mocking other people, especially when you are wrong to begin with, is just the wrong way to discuss; and if you have nothing to discuss about, then don't post. It keeps APUG a place I want to subscribe in the future, too.

    Over and out; thank you.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 21, 2009
  18. mikebarger

    mikebarger Member

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    There are two points of view on this and they come up every time we go through a realignment of products. Hashing it over hasn't, and won't, chance either sides opinion. I don't think there is a right or wrong side to this issue.

    For the record I'm one of the telling a company what products you like is OK, but in the end dollars make the most noise. I've kind of mellowed out that petitioners are going to petition. I'll still fill the freezer with products I use, extra full if they make the realignment list.

    Worst case, I'll find a new product/process, even if it is mixing my own chemistry or cutting sheets from rolls.

    Speaking of that, think I'll get the hassy out and burn some Tri-X.

    Mike
     
  19. frotog

    frotog Member

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    My sentiments exactly, Mike, and why, independent of this forum, there are prominent artists and printers who are, as I write this, petitioning Kodak to keep this product alive.
     
  20. BradS

    BradS Subscriber

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    I think you guys might give some consideration to the simple fact that Kodak is a publicly held company with some 268 MILLION shares outstanding. The comapny lost more money (earnings per share) last year than the whole company is currently worth (market cap).

    Think for a while about the following....

    1) What do you think the share holders want?
    2) How do you think an internet petition with 100 (or, even 10000) signers compares to the demands of the share holders?


    Suppose for just a moment that a large portion of your personal fortune were tied up in Kodak stock....or, that a majority of your earnings were paid in the form of Kodak stock options....what would you want? and how would that want compare in force to this petition drive.


    As consumers, the only vote you have is the dollars you spend. Your time to vote has passed. Get over it and move forward.
     
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  21. Greg Davis

    Greg Davis Subscriber

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    I buy their paper. I make my living from using their paper and teaching other people to use their paper. This may be a hobby to you, but it is my livelihood. I am very passionate about traditional photography and the creative possibilities it provides. By eliminating our access to these products, we no longer have a very important tool for visual communication. It is not simply a matter of one product going away, but having other options to go to. This eliminates access to all RA-4 printing at home and even schools. Even if we can find a workaround with the new emulsion, it is not available in sheets. That means we will have to invest in very large amounts of paper in roll form. Not everyone is able to make that investment.

    This petition is to let Kodak know that their decisions impact more than just their bottom line. At the scale they make products, I can't see how any of it turns a profit. And nobody wants their digital cameras or printers, either. I don't know how they are going to survive at all unless they make changes.
     
  22. MikeSeb

    MikeSeb Member

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    @Greg, @frotog, et al: I hope the petition helps. Seriously.

    @hrst: thank you for the promotion up from "lurker". I suppose @BradS and I will now have to draw straws to see which of us will become "troll" and which, "troublemaker". I do look quite fetching in green....
     
  23. Michael Kadillak

    Michael Kadillak Member

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    Eastman Kodak

    The fact that Eastman Kodak is still in business is testimony to the fact that they have made tough decisions for the sole purpose of being able to fight another day. Just take a look at the stock price.

    The market is in the midst of a necessary consolidation and many many favorite products will cease to exist in order for the business to continue forward. This was the case in the 1930's when Edward Weston was making images and it is the case now. It is never easy but life will go on.

    Unless you have an interest in putting large amount of financial resources into the pot to insure your desired outcome you are wasting your time with the petition process. The train has long ago left the station. Find a substitute and/or change your process and move on.

    Cheers!
     

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  24. Greg Davis

    Greg Davis Subscriber

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    Unfortunately, the only options in this case are to have a lab print my work, which is too much of a drain on time and money compared to my own darkroom, or to print via inkjet, which is too much of a drain on time and money compared to my darkroom.

    I can work around this VC paper's attributes. I'm not married to the current Supra so much that I can't print anything else. The lack of sheet sizes, however, is a serious problem. And not just for me.
     
  25. Existing Light

    Existing Light Member

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  26. Greg Davis

    Greg Davis Subscriber

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    It is the amount of gloss on the surface. F is glossy, N is semi-matte. There are still boxes of Supra at Kodak that has yet to be distributed, so the material is not gone yet. It may take months or years to sell it all. However, once it is gone, it is gone for good.