PMK Pyro streaks in Jobo - Pyrocat-HD/Rollo solution ?

Discussion in 'Alternative Processes' started by nick mulder, Feb 15, 2010.

  1. nick mulder

    nick mulder Member

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    Hello all,

    I've got myself a Jobo CPA2 with Lift and want to develop some 8x10" B&W for Pt/Pd.

    The last time I used Pyro was PMK in a Jobo rotary drum (2000 series) on a CPE2 - I got strips of higher stain density along the base side of the film where the ribs rest on the film... They were only barely visible on the neg, but the stain worked as expected and blocked the UV well enough to make dark 'ribs' in the highlights/smooth toned areas of my images - skies ruined/negs unusable (how to bleach off stain on one side of the neg only!?)...

    I remember reading in the Weese/Sullivan Pt/Pd book that Rollo Pyro goes someway into solving rotary processing issues - and I've also found the article on Pyrocat-HD at unblinking eye but neither specifically state the problem I am having... If I had to choose Pyrocat-HD sounds like the winner but am I just going to be getting it and discovering I have to go back to trays at midnight and the PMK may as well be used up anyway ??

    Is there anyway around the "take the drum off of the Jobo every 1-1/2 to 2 minutes and tilt it back and forth while rotating it by hand for about 15 seconds" solution ? or is it even a solution for what I am talking about ? Seems to me that the ribs via surface tension are just keeping a slightly higher amount of the developer for longer thereby a bit more activity (the stains were larger than the ribs but perfectly lined up) - hmmm, doesn't the stain adhere to silver (?) and there is no silver on the base ...

    :confused:


    I LOVE daylight processing (E6, what a hoot!) so I'm really keen to get pyro going with the Jobo - hoping to find someone who a. knows the issue I have and b. knows how to solve it

    Anyone ?

    Kind Regards,
    Nick
     
  2. photomc

    photomc Member

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    Nick, had the same issue using a Beseler drum and roller motor. The fix I found was to increase the total volume in the tank. In my case, I was using 300 ml for 8x10 - changed it to a full liter (1000 ml) and the issue seemed to go away. The problem can occur when the developer begins to create a wave pattern (for lack of a better description) which seems to be disrupted by taking the tank of and moving side to side or in my case by altering the amount of liquid in the tank. Can't promise it will work, but considering the low cost of mixing Pyrocat it is worth a try.

    Good luck, let me know if this helps.
     
  3. kevcurry67

    kevcurry67 Member

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    Gordon Hutching recommends adding EDTA to the develper when using tubes, jobo etc.

    ''To add EDTA to the working solution, prepare a 1% solution by dissolving 10 grams of EDTA in 1000 cc of water. Then add 5 cc of the 1% solution to a liter of PMK just before developing the film'' 'Book of Pyro' G.H

    (EDTA-disodium) or (EDTA-tetrasodium) only!
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 15, 2010
  4. Mahler_one

    Mahler_one Member

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    Hello Nick: I have used both Rollo Pyro AND Pyrocat- HD in Jobo expert tanks, 8x10, using the CPP processor following the directions specified with the developers. Thus far, I have not had any marks or problems of any kind.

    Ed
     
  5. nick mulder

    nick mulder Member

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    Thanks photomc I'll give it a test with the PMK...

    Kev, I'll give it a try but I'd like to know is the addition of EDTA specifically for this issue or just some wider aspect of rotary processing?
     
  6. jp80874

    jp80874 Subscriber

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    I think if you search history here and the LF Forum you will read many suggestions to do 8x10 in the Expert drums eliminating many problems. I have used Rollo Pyro for 4x5 and 8x10 in Expert drums on a CPP-2 since early 2004 with no problems. I have also used Rollo Pyro doing two 7x17 in 2850 drums without problems. When trying three sheets of 7x17 in a 3063 tank I got both the ridges you describe and uneven development. At $7 a sheet, one bad run was enough experimenting there.

    John Powers
     
  7. wildbill

    wildbill Member

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    I use pmk +edta for all formats in my jobo. No streaks but I'm using expert drums (speed 4, 1000ml in 3005 & 500ml 3010 tanks) for sheet film. I believe the edta is recommended to reduce the effects of oxidization due to constant agitation (I don't feel like digging the book of pyro out). I don't think this will reduce your streaks.
     
  8. sanking

    sanking Member

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    Streaks and high b+f was reported in the very early days of PMK. The main issue is tht the developer oxidizes very rapidly. Solutions offered have been, 1) splitting the total volume of developer, discarding half of it at the mid-way point and adding the fresh, 2) adding a bit of sulfite to the working solution, or 3) adding some ascorbic acid to the working solution.

    All of these methods work, but Rollo Pyro and Pyrocat-HD and -MC work equally well without any of the above remedies and give results that are just as good as.

    The stain from the ridge marks is another issue, and is caused by agitation. It can be reduced or eliminated by, 1) using a much weaker dilution of the developer, with extended development time to compensate, or by 2) slowing down the rotation of the drum in RPM, or 3) by both 1 and 2.

    Sandy King
     
  9. nick mulder

    nick mulder Member

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    I'm chasing the perfect Pt/Pd neg, which I've now got in trays and PMK (usually no contrast control required in printing, just #1 and #3 and away I go... or just the smallest bit low con so I have a bit of choice with some subjects and can use very dilute NA2).

    I can hear the 'if it aint broke' - its just that to tray develop I need to do this nights - the light proofing is hard work with the sun out and I'm working most nights anyway...

    Weaker developer - so using EDTA might work in a round about way against the ridge mark issue ? I think I'm going to get some Pyrocat-HD and start again as lower strength dev and less agitation sounds like it'll work against my PMK process which involves a push.

    Do I still do the shake it the other way trick or is that just for the "hot streaks in 7x17" (unblinking eye) ?

    John - expert drums on ebay are more expensive alone that my complete kit was here, and then there is the pump too - I'm not sure if I need one, as if you're getting good results with 7x17 in 2000 series and then rib streaks in a 3063 :confused:

    Maybe I shouldn't worry as I'm shooting a squarer formats anyway - what is it with the 7x17" ? I did note the effect was pretty much masked by busy scenes and only showed up in areas like sky, maybe its the general subject choice of 7x17" users that lend something to it being noticed more and its happening more than other people realize in other formats/subjects but is hidden in the detail or shadows ?
     
  10. photomc

    photomc Member

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    Nick, one more observation to share with you...I did not find the "surge line" or area of density until I started to print some negatives (as you mentioned more so with sky), but after I went back and checked both 7x11 and 8x10 negatives I did notice on both...just harder to see on some negatives, but it is there. Because I must use a Beseler 11x14 drum for the 7x11, I caught it there first - with 8x10 negatives I use both 8x10 drums for single sheets and 11x14 drums for multiple. So be sure to wait until you print before you know for sure. I am using the Formulary P-Cat HD for my processing (ready mix in glycol since my darkroom time comes sort of infrequent these days).
     
  11. nick mulder

    nick mulder Member

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    Well, I'm no where near as experienced as other shooters but I'll stake a claim and that's my theory for now ... There is something causing the ridge steaks at least with some pyro developer mixes and some tanks/agitation schemes/processes maybe we could throw in film size and type also (?) but weather or not they are noticed is dependent on the subject and associated UV printing of the neg ...

    A lot of variables !

    Its a hard nut to crack huh - any physical solution I come up with in terms of another way to hold the negs in the tube I get the feeling I'm just going to introduce another issue ...

    Anyway to 'float' a neg on a solution of bleach that would clear the base side of stain but via surface tension at the edges keep the emulsion dry ? :rolleyes:
     
  12. JBrunner

    JBrunner Moderator Staff Member Moderator

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    PMK has a hard time in roller processing because it is a fast oxidizer. I use B&S rollo pyro, which behaves much as pmk but it has an inhibitor tht slows down the oxidation. Nice stain, no streaks. Hutchings new Max Pyro is said to be good for jobo etc as well.

    http://www.bostick-sullivan.com/cart/home.php?cat=154
     
  13. nick mulder

    nick mulder Member

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    Question is, is the faster oxidation the cause of the base side ridge concentrations ?

    I'm going to do a B&S order in the next few months - maybe I'll get both Pyrocat-Hd and the Max ...
     
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  15. frotog

    frotog Member

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    Oxidation. The only two techniques I've had success with are as follows...
    1. Fill tank with two litres of solution (in my case a 3006 Jobo drum) and use a rubber plug to plug off opening and then hand rolled in the trough of my cpp.
    2. Nitrogen gas fed in through the "nostrils" of the lift at a rate of 1000 ml/minute during development.

    The rib markings are weird as they're not on the emulsion side of the neg. right? How you pre-wash seems to have an effect. I found that, for the pre-wash, filling up drum to the lip with distilled water and then inserting sheet film in slots was the only solution to this problem.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 15, 2010
  16. nick mulder

    nick mulder Member

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    Ok - whew, depending on the drum that's a lot of distilled water :surprised: - the room I load film in isn't of the wet variety unfortunately ...

    Reverse engineering your solution doesn't give me any clues as to the action of the issue itself though - ok, so now the film is wet, but how much or less 'wet' than an initial pre-wet via the usual method of less un-distilled water and a bit of agitation ... (?)

    Perhaps a bit off topic but I did some 4x5 E6 yesterday in two identical model drums - the little 2000 series ones that can do 2x 4x5" - 2 frames from one of the drums came out with sort of 'gummy' strips where the rib sat on the base, one frame it cleaned off fine, the other left strips of abrasion, perhaps from a too vigorous cleaning - the 2 frames from the other drum, completely clear ... I cant see any difference between drums, but I did process them sequentially using the same soup ... Anyway, perhaps a bit off topic, but rib related I guess.
     
  17. Mahler_one

    Mahler_one Member

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    Jason...has anyone actually USED the new Pyro developer from Gordon? I have been watching for some discussions of the developer here, and have noted very little if any written about MaxPyro.

    Sorry to get a bit off topic....
     
  18. sanking

    sanking Member

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    i don't believe the faster oxidation is the "primary" cause of the base side ridge marks. This has been observed with non-staining developers, D76 for example, and apparently is caused by the developer speeding up as it crosses over the ridge. This gives more energy.

    However, pyro staining developers may accentuate the problem with some films that have a heavy gelatin coating on the base. If that is the case the ridge that results from agitation will be more pronounced from staining.

    Sandy King
     
  19. nick mulder

    nick mulder Member

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    I'm going to try more developer volume (this should help with capacity/oxidation issues also), less strong concentration and slower agitation - looking back at the worst neg its most noticeable in the ridges that run side by side of the centre ridge (which splits half and half for 8x10") - I don't use these ridges for any of the formats I shoot so I might remove them also - they are for 5x7" and ?? damn, hang on, they'd be used for the 14" of 11x14" huh ... 8"x2 = 16" round minus 1" either side = 14" ... with a nice big ridge mark right down the middle to look forward to ...
     
  20. Dana Sullivan

    Dana Sullivan Advertiser Advertiser

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    Is everyone pre-soaking the film before adding the developer? The instructions that come with our Rollo Pyro kit recommend spinning a weak solution of sodium metaborate in the drum for about 3 minutes, dumping it, then adding the developer. We found that the old Bergger BPF-200 really had issues with streaking if you didn't do this, and the modern Ilford films are sometimes prone to streaking as well.

    -Dana
     
  21. nick mulder

    nick mulder Member

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    Just in water - I was using the Foma 200 film at the time but I haven't tried any other film in the Jobo yet with the PMK... I have FP4, Efke something and Arista Ultra Edu to try next ...

    Are we talking about the same ridge issue tho ?
     
  22. frotog

    frotog Member

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    The technique of loading the film into a jobo already filled with the water/sodium metaborate prewash has been passed on here and on other forums. It seemed odd to me that this would solve the problem but then I tried it and it worked. One would have to deduce that in loading the film dry the prewash doesn't fully saturate that part of the sheet that's pressed up against the ridge of the jobo's cylinder and discrete areas of greater or lesser stain ensue. But your problem might just be the result of excessive oxidation. If the prewash technique seems like a PITA (and it is) why not first rule out oxidation by either displacing oxygen with gas or use more solution and a cork. Good luck - it took me a long time to rid my process of the gremlins you've encountered.
     
  23. outwest

    outwest Subscriber

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    The addition of the EDTA solution to PMK that Gordon recommends eliminates the oxidation problem. Probably not that anyway, as the worst blotching I had was with MaxPyro. I think it has more to do with insufficient prewetting and some vagaries of agitation. The Expert tanks seem to take care of it for me.
     
  24. nick mulder

    nick mulder Member

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    Ridge 'blotching' ?

    I'm really trying to determine if what I'm talking about is the one and the same issue with the more 'standard' pyro/rotary issues... (which in true odd pyro manner I am yet to experience)
     
  25. outwest

    outwest Subscriber

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    Yes, from the ridges, or even the bumps on the old celluloid film holders for 2500 series tanks.
     
  26. nick mulder

    nick mulder Member

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    Ok - cool - thanks... Just trying to make sure we're all on the same page :smile:

    I'll be up and running soon once the E6 excitement dies down and I'll report back the test results ...