PMK times in Rotary setup

Discussion in 'B&W: Film, Paper, Chemistry' started by chrisl, Dec 11, 2003.

  1. chrisl

    chrisl Member

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    I've looked alot of places and have found times for hand processing pmk for various films, but no luck for rotary proc. 4x5 film specifically (even Gordon's book only has times for hand proc.). I got my dev. technique down pretty good w. D76 and want to give this PMK a try. Plus, thanks to GreyWolfs idea, my unicolor tanks are leak proof now. Anyway, here's what I found so far for trix 1:2:100 12min/75 at ei250 from Ed B's site, and 14min/70 ei250 from Gordon (i shoot it at 160 though)..though I think those times are about the same when compensated for the temp....And fp4 1:2:100 10min/70. Now, I've also read rotary one might want to decr. dev. time...should I or just try these times and judge and adjust from there? I'm developing all my negs at N for now to keep things consistent in the beginning learning curve.

    I plan on btw a 5min presoak in dilute sod metoborate solution, then onto dev, water stop, t4 and rinse.

    Thanks for the help!
    Chris

    Oh, I also have some Delta 3200 (ei3200) thanks to Les (thanks buddy). Should I try to use the PMK (hand proc in stainless tank) or use Rodinal? Times anyone?? I see Ed has times 12.5/75..but he shot it at 800.
     
  2. Aggie

    Aggie Member

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  3. chrisl

    chrisl Member

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    Fantastic! Thanks Aggie for the info!

    Chris
     
  4. chrisl

    chrisl Member

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    Well, finally! Developed some 4x5 in PMK today! Pretty cool stuff, amazing how dark that used dev gets! Used Gordon's times: 70F, 14min..at his ei of 260. I shoot at 160. Anyway, developed 6, one perfect, one underexposed and thin, and the others are too dark. It seems maybe I developing too long, but am not sure. A couple quesions?

    1 is it normal to have the clear film base on the edges to be stained or clear??
    And 2. Should I decr. my time to say 12min since 4/6 were a bit too much?

    thanks for any help!
    chris
     
  5. Donald Miller

    Donald Miller Member

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    It was my impression that PMK was determined as being inappropriate for rotary processing. At least that was the case a year ago. (maybe the formulation has been altered). That is the reason that the RolloPyro formulation was designed (for rotary processing). You may want to check with Formulary on this and make sure.

    If this is still true then your high negative density is probably partly due to aerial oxidation.
     
  6. lee

    lee Member

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    \that was my understanding Don. Rollo Pyro was the formulation that was recommended for Jobo's. PMK is for tray and tank development. I tried to use a Jobo for quite a while and could never quite get the negs to look right. I sold the Jobo and went back to the trays. Been there ever since.

    lee\c
     
  7. Aggie

    Aggie Member

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  8. Donald Miller

    Donald Miller Member

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    Chris, I checked with Bostick and Sullivan who along with PhotoFormulary have entered into an agreement with Gordon Hutchings on producing and selling the PMK formulation. Either Gordon is not indicating the same thing to all people or something else is lacking in communication. At any rate, this is what was located on the B&S site pertaining to pyro and PMK pyro as it pertains to rotary processing. You may benefit from checking this out more completely for yourself.

    What is Pyro?
    Pyro is actually a loose family of film developers that use the chemical pyrogallic acid. There are many variations to the basic formula, the most popular current version is Hutchings' PMK developer (for Pyro Metol Kodalk). Edward Weston used a famous formula for many years he called ABC pyro. Most pyro formulas can only be used in tray development because heavy agitation quickly oxidizes the pyro and it depletes rapidly, so B&S makes Rollo Pyro for use in Jobo¬ô drums and other rotary development systems.
     
  9. fhovie

    fhovie Subscriber

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    I have been using PMK in rotary for a long time with no problems. I did decrease the time by 10% and I did find that I got better accutance by filling a Jobo with 1.25 liters of PMK and doing traditional agitation.
     
  10. chrisl

    chrisl Member

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    Thanks all for the responses. I heard/read? that using the sodium metoborate predev wash addressed the issue of rapid oxidaton and that this step made using a rotary processor possible. I could be wrong.

    But, I also am using alot of developer, 250ml for only 2 sheets. Also, I found this link of Ed's: http://unblinkingeye.com/Articles/Times/D3200/D3200_Grain/d3200_grain.html
    And I guess my neg's just slightly less contrasty than that one, but nearly the same density. Maybe Im just not used to the stain. But I'll go with Franks suggestion of a 10% reduction, so 12 1/2min tomorrow. And Frank, the Unicolor is the only drum I have now that'll do 4x5, so I'm just using what I have (same w the PMK Donald, next time I thought I'd try pyrocat hd.

    Thanks again for the help!

    Chris
     
  11. Aggie

    Aggie Member

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  12. chrisl

    chrisl Member

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    Thanks Aggie, I appreciate it. if you want to come over with the tanks that'd be great as well. I still have about 20 sheets still to do. u still have my phone number?
     
  13. Aggie

    Aggie Member

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  14. lee

    lee Member

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    """is it normal to have the clear film base on the edges to be stained or clear??"""

    Chrisl,
    I don't have any film here at the house but I believe that the clear areas of the film around the outside of the image should have stain in that area also. PMK has a general overall stain. IMO, the trick is to just process the film long enough and print thru the stain. I have been using PMK for about 5 years now and I don't re-soak after fixing and I shoot most of the films I use (HP5+ mostly) at the box speed. My times for normal at 68f is around 17 minutes with tray processing and continual rotation. I hesitate to call it agitation. I also put several drops of Edwal's LFN wetting agent in the pre-soak. That helps the largeformat film not stick together when it first hits the water. I also use Nitril Gloves so I don't get anything on the skin or in the cuts that I seem to always have on my hands. I use H2O for stop bath and I don't use HCA or hypo clear but wash for 20 or so minutes and then run the film thru Photo-flo for a little bit and hang it up to dry. That is what I do, but ymmd. :smile:

    lee\c
     
  15. chrisl

    chrisl Member

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    Real similar Lee. 5min presoak, develop, water stop for 3mins, fix 6min and then 20min wash also followed by a quick dip in photoflo. I have some hp5 35mm that i was going to also dev in pmk, nikkor hand develop. I'll try your sugg. time, though I typ agitate for first 15sec, then 15sec/min.

    thx for sharing your thoughts
    Chris
     
  16. Aggie

    Aggie Member

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  17. middlecalf

    middlecalf Member

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    You can use rotary to process in PMK. What happens is PMK oxidizes really fast (turns dark brown), and the base fog increases (which can be printed through but in my opinion is better to not have). I ran several dozen tests with equally exposed test samples of Ilford FP4+ (rated ASA64) and Kodak's new Tri-X (rated ASA160). The best times ended up being identical, which is kind of convenient (times were determined by visual inspection and some printing, not using a densitometer). Temperature is 68 deg F. Here's my process all on the Jobo processor using 6 sheet tank for 4x5, preferably 2 sheets at a time (which matches surface area for 1 8x10 which I also process this way in a print tank) but have used 4 sheets (which equates roughly to 2 5x7 sheets which I also process this way in a print tank) with minimal additional base fogging, all at temperature and 270ml volume:

    1. Presoak for 5 min, dump for 15 sec (removes most of the anti-halation color).
    2. 1st PMK run 3:6:261 using tap water for 4:30 min, dump for 15 sec.
    3. 2nd (fresh) PMK 3:6:261 using tap water for 4:30 min, dump for 15 sec.
    4. Stop bath using tap water, 2 fill and dumps of 30 secs each.
    5. Fix with non-hardening rapid fixer (I use Heico Rapid Fix) for 2 min, dump for 15 sec.
    6. Stain bath (no rinse between fix and this step) using 1-2 grams of Sodium Metaborate in 270ml tap water for 2 min, dump.
    7. Wash on the processor, 3-4 min in 30 sec periods, tap water.
    8. Finish washing off of processor for 10-20 min in tap water.

    I discussed this aproach with Gordon Hutchings at last year's Large Format Conference and he agreed that this might overcome the rapid oxidation issues with single rotary runs. I ran longer times, different ratios of chemicals, and quantities of film. This gave me what I think is the best overall negative while minimizing the base fog. Color is greenish-yellow. This is a very simple process for my darkroom flow and I'm glad I tried it and it works. It also keeps your hands out of all chemicals which must be nice. I use the liquid PMK so pyro dust isn't a problem.

    But you know why I tried it? Because I read a lot opinions that said it can't or shouldn't be done. Kind of put the ol' challenge in it for me. I've got it to work, have some prints that I'm proud of, so don't necessarily believe everything you read!!
     
  18. Aggie

    Aggie Member

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  19. chrisl

    chrisl Member

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    Yes, that tank was a godsend lol processed alot of film very well exc. for the dye as mentioned by Aggie above. Interesting though Aggie, the FP4 run I did after you left, I only had one neg w. a much smaller area of left dye(1/4"). Not sure why so much less. Also Aggie, I think I underdeveloped them jus ta tad...10min/70F. Not sure why either as that's the rec. time. In fact, they're worse as most were also underexposed some. Wierd. Anyway, gonna incr. time a bit for last run and see how they look.

    Anyway, the Nikkor tank is nice for when ya got alot of film. The unidrum also worked great after decr. the Trix(160) to 12.3min.

    Thanks for all the suggestions! And Middlecalf, I too was concerned about dev. oxidation and rapid depletion, but I used 250ml for 2sheets as well as 1.2l for the 12 sheets,and they came out fine. but I think you might be right about FP4 dev times being close to trix.

    Chris
     
  20. middlecalf

    middlecalf Member

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    Need to update my input on PMK processing. I process with all chemicals/rinses at 70 deg F, not 68 as stated (too many different processes!!). When I process 8x10s and 5x7s in the print tank, occasionally a few anti-halation spots remain after the intial rinses in the tank due to lack sufficient water flow behind the film. Continued washing out of the tank has always removed the remaining spots.