POP ?

Discussion in 'Contact Printing' started by Guillaume Zuili, Nov 8, 2008.

  1. Guillaume Zuili

    Guillaume Zuili Subscriber

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    Any news about Centennial POP ?
     
  2. David A. Goldfarb

    David A. Goldfarb Moderator Staff Member

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  3. Guillaume Zuili

    Guillaume Zuili Subscriber

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    Thanks David. 2009... :-(
    Painful.
    G.
     
  4. CowboyZen

    CowboyZen Member

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    The Demise of Printing out Paper

    Just read this on the Albumen Works Website. So much for Harman's commitment.

    "Despite assurances from a year ago, we regret to report that Harman Technology (the company that bought and shut down the Kentmere production facility in December, 2007) has informed us that they will not be able to produce Centennial™ printing-out paper. Unfortunately, in the current economic climate, the cost of procuring the Centennial™ POP formula and the R&D required to bring it to market through another manufacturer prohibits us from attempting to re-establish this product.

    To our knowledge, there is no POP being manufactured today. Introduced in Munich in 1884, it has been one of the most long-lived printing products in the history of photography.

    We thank you for supporting our efforts to maintain POP over the last 2 decades, and we are sorry this beautiful paper will no longer be available to you.

    Chicago Albumen Works
    1/8/09"
     
  5. David A. Goldfarb

    David A. Goldfarb Moderator Staff Member

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    That's unfortunate. Here's the link to the CAW site--

    http://www.albumenworks.com/printing-out-paper.html

    My understanding when I spoke with Simon Galley was that they were trying to overcome the technical problem of maintaining the high temperature necessary for producing this emulsion while using ultrafiltration, which is necessary for Harman's coating machines (and apparently was not necessary on Kentmere's machine). I guess they couldn't do it.

    Maybe it's time for a resurgence in albumen printing.
     
  6. RobertP

    RobertP Member

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    Time to get the old egg beater back out. This is sad news. I hate it when we lose a paper. I do enjoy making my own albumen paper but POP was so convenient.
     
  7. rrankin

    rrankin Member

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    Wow, that is a surprise. When I bought a box from Bostick & Sullivan not long ago, they only had two boxes left, and I got one of them. Whoever bought the final box was, apparently, an unwitting participant in history. At the time, I had the distinct impression that they fully expected to be getting more stock. Centennial POP provided my first printing and toning experiences years ago, and I'll miss it, for sure.

    Cheers, Richard
     
  8. Photo Engineer

    Photo Engineer Subscriber

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    In another thread, Simon Galley said it was a matter of reengineering the UF wash system to run at 80F. I wonder whats up with this. It should be possible to wash by other means, either noodle or ISO for example, and there are the methods that Kentmere used. Surely something can be done without too much cost.

    PE
     
  9. David A. Goldfarb

    David A. Goldfarb Moderator Staff Member

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    I thought it was 80C, and my understanding was that UF was important for the emulsion to work with their coating machines, so other methods wouldn't work. Does that sound right to you?
     
  10. Photo Engineer

    Photo Engineer Subscriber

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    Yeah, 80C. Sorry. Thanks David.

    As for UF, other wash methods work and can be coated. BTDT! I think it is a budget/market problem. Not enough ROI for the R&D.

    PE
     
  11. erikg

    erikg Member

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    UF, BTDT, ROI? I have no idea what that means, but it doesn't matter. POP is gone and that makes me very SAD. I have one box from the last batch in my freezer. Damn.
     
  12. David A. Goldfarb

    David A. Goldfarb Moderator Staff Member

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    UF=UltraFiltration
    BTDT=Been There Done That
    ROI=Return On Investment (closely related to UBU)
    POP=Printing Out Paper
    SAD=Seasonal Affective Disorder
     
  13. Trevor Crone

    Trevor Crone Member

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    May not be forever?

    I had a reply from Simon Galley of Ilford in response to my query about its reinstatement and he said Ilford were still working on it.

    So keep those fingers crossed.
     
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  15. Ray Rogers

    Ray Rogers Member

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    ??? I can't seem to find such a comment by Simon.

    Do you have it somewehre?

    In anycase, the problem was explained more in terms of a health issue... the Kentmere process required the use of an unhealthy low vapor pressure organic... on a small scale, with an experienced operator, Harman speculated it could have been done at Kentmere by Kentmere, but not in the new facilities... it was just too unhealthy...

    It is possible that the UF fits into this somehow, but I got the impression that there was just too much volatile escape to be allowed.

    Ray
     
  16. Justin Cormack

    Justin Cormack Member

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    Thats really bad news. Back to self coated.
     
  17. Photo Engineer

    Photo Engineer Subscriber

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    I don't have a reference. If I saved all of them that interest me I would have run out of disk space.

    As it is, I have found a number of old formulas for POP in textbooks I have here. I suppose I will have to try one or another of them out. I'm not sure why the UF is involved though (if it is).

    PE
     
  18. BrianShaw

    BrianShaw Member

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    There are half-a-dozen, give or take, POP recipes in Jan Arnow's 1982 Handbook of Alternative Photographic Processes. Personally I was hoping not to have to "D-I-Y" but perhaps it will be a good idea to review these formulas!
     
  19. erikg

    erikg Member

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    Thank you doctor, I feel much better..:smile:

    If there is still a slim hope that Ilford will work things out I will drop Simon a note expressing my support. I wish I could do more, it would be too much to expect a Michael Smith to step up for P.O.P. and I'm certainly not in a position to do so.
     
  20. Trevor Crone

    Trevor Crone Member

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    I think if everyone who would like to see POP back on the shelves drop Simon a note expressing this, it may, I say may, just get something happening.
     
  21. Ian Grant

    Ian Grant Subscriber

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    Chicago Albumen Works claimed previously on their Website that Kentmere made Centennial POP to their (CAW) formula. Now they say "Unfortunately, in the current economic climate, the cost of procuring the Centennialâ„¢ POP formula". Something doesn't sound right here.

    As a new paper has only just been launched to replace Azo, it is possible to bring replacement products to market albeit made by a different manufacturer. But someone has to shoulder the R&D costs etc.

    Like Ron (PE) and others I have a number of formulae for POP's but at present I don't want to return to emulsion manufacturer.

    Ian
     
  22. Photo Engineer

    Photo Engineer Subscriber

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    Ian;

    We could form a joint venture company and make POP, Azo/Lupex in 4 grades, Kodabromide/Brovira in 3 grades, and the old Super X ortho film in LF. :D That rocks!

    PE
     
  23. Ian Grant

    Ian Grant Subscriber

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    My guess is that Dixons still have drawings for small coating machines, and they made everything needed for emulsion manufacture etc, film & paper drying, slitting, rewinding etc.

    They were still advertising everything needed in the BJ of P Almanac in 1961, and they are still producing coating machines today :smile:

    So it's not as daft as it sounds :D

    Ian
     
  24. Photo Engineer

    Photo Engineer Subscriber

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    Just the minimum order of rolls of paper and film would break us! :sad:

    I think it is 8 rolls, 42" x 5000 ft minimum. And, usually you don't want to coat modern day FB on the same machine as film so you need 2 machines. Another :sad:

    PE
     
  25. Ian Grant

    Ian Grant Subscriber

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    There are always ways around these sorts of obstacles, and they are far easier than you might first think :smile:

    Some things best said off forum :D

    Ian
     
  26. Ian Grant

    Ian Grant Subscriber

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    Ilford made a POP paper of their own until quite recently. Could this be manufactured again ? The current staff may not realise that, Simon Galley et al weren't working for Ilford when I visited Mobberley few times in the early 80's. In fact the research & sales departments didn't know that the "Barfen" liquid emulsion at that time was made by Ilford. It was only when someone from Ilford sales approached the company behind Barfen branded products that they found it was from the Ilford Nuclear emulsions division, based in London.

    So Simon could the Ilford POP paper be manufactured again. Last time I saw a reference it was in a Ilford kit for schools as an intro to photography, making photograms etc.

    Ian