Positive to Positive prining, color

Discussion in 'Color: Film, Paper, and Chemistry' started by lightwisps, Jan 17, 2013.

  1. lightwisps

    lightwisps Subscriber

    Messages:
    384
    Joined:
    Jan 27, 2005
    Location:
    Almonte, Ont
    Shooter:
    35mm
    Does anyone know of a positive to positive method of printing color slides. I am getting desparate as Ilfochrome is completely gone. I wish someone would at least make some chemicals. I have a ton of paper. Thanks in advance for any ideas. Don
     
  2. AgX

    AgX Member

    Messages:
    11,204
    Joined:
    Apr 5, 2007
    Location:
    Germany
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
    Aside of using Ilfochrome, the latest late material for positive-positive printing, the more classic way would be that of using a inter-negative.
    However all designated inter-negative films, are gone too. There is one cine-internegative film left, but that will be off the market soon too.

    Third way would be to reverse-process RA-4 paper.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 17, 2013
  3. darkroom_rookie

    darkroom_rookie Member

    Messages:
    357
    Joined:
    Jul 5, 2010
    Shooter:
    Medium Format
    Been doing internegatives on tungsten film for a while now. It works extremely well. You do need to overexpose and then underdevelop to tame contrast, and sometimes add a bit Y filtration for some very cold Velvia shots, but generally the biggest worry is dust. I'm using grounded metal Hama contact printing frame, anti-static wipes and a dichroic 200W-bulb enlarger. Get a good supply of same-type and preferably also same-batch tungsten film, test it thorougly and you're in business. Mine is Kodak 100T.
     
  4. AgX

    AgX Member

    Messages:
    11,204
    Joined:
    Apr 5, 2007
    Location:
    Germany
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
    All long exposure films have gone too.
     
  5. ndrs

    ndrs Subscriber

    Messages:
    114
    Joined:
    Feb 21, 2009
    Location:
    Germany
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
    Do you mean you have a ton of Ilfochrome paper? The Ilfochrome chemicals are still easily available.
     
  6. AgX

    AgX Member

    Messages:
    11,204
    Joined:
    Apr 5, 2007
    Location:
    Germany
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
    Whereas those chemistries are not even listed at Ilford any more, their german importer for instance has them deliberately still listed for the next months to serve those who still have stock of paper.
    It seems the situation is different for Canada.
     
  7. nworth

    nworth Subscriber

    Messages:
    2,157
    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2005
    Location:
    Los Alamos,
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
    A while back, PE reported decent results by reversal processing Kodak Endura paper. Use D-72 as a first developer, rinse well, re-expose, and process as for RA-4. I know this does not work using Fuji Crystal Archive.
     
  8. darkroom_rookie

    darkroom_rookie Member

    Messages:
    357
    Joined:
    Jul 5, 2010
    Shooter:
    Medium Format
    Strange, it worked for me with Crystal Archive (FG, not Type II). The first developer wasn't D-72, though, but a mixture of Ilford PQ and D-76. Tried it with Ultra Endura F and N as well, and those looked a bit better to my eyes. Crystal Archive had warmer, almost brownish shadows. Velvia on Endura was pretty cold in tones. Contrast is far too high, even with Sensia. Still have to try it with Astia and CDU-II, thouse could work better. Not sure if added sodium sulphite could help with contrast, there's a lengthy thread here on APUG on reversal RA-4, it's worth digging through it.
     
  9. Stephen Frizza

    Stephen Frizza Member

    Messages:
    1,400
    Joined:
    Mar 2, 2007
    Shooter:
    Medium Format
    Ilfoflex when processed via RA-4 reversal is the most promising pos to pos process i have tested, So much so that this year I am looking into converting my Ilfochrome processor to an ilfoflex reversal machine. The great advantage over the process compared to Ilfochrome is better contrast control via manipulation of the first developer.
     
  10. darkroom_rookie

    darkroom_rookie Member

    Messages:
    357
    Joined:
    Jul 5, 2010
    Shooter:
    Medium Format
    Stephen, is this manipulation specific to Ilfoflex (not easily available!) or could it work with Crystal Archive, be it Type I or II? I'm still interested in this process. Could you provide more detailed information?
     
  11. DREW WILEY

    DREW WILEY Member

    Messages:
    4,183
    Joined:
    Jul 14, 2011
    Shooter:
    8x10 Format
    I'm making internegs with Kodak color neg sheet film then printing them onto Fuji CAII. It's a whole
    new learning curve since the demise of Ciba, and way too complicated in nuances to describe here
    if one expects very high quality results (I do). But it can be done. A dedicated interneg film is not
    necessary, and would be obsolete anyway. But other than that general remark, the details get fairly
    technical.
     
  12. Stephen Frizza

    Stephen Frizza Member

    Messages:
    1,400
    Joined:
    Mar 2, 2007
    Shooter:
    Medium Format
    the other papers are a lot harder to control the contrast and colour with, they also have chemical issues with consistency and some papers get an odd mottle though them. The Ilfoflex is by far the most stable and consistent for Ra-4 reversal and with its high gloss using the same base as Ilfochrome it has a very similar feel.
    I strongly feel the only way forward for ilfochrome in analog is Ilfoflex reversal.
     
  13. WayneStevenson

    WayneStevenson Member

    Messages:
    145
    Joined:
    Aug 2, 2009
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
    Where on earth are you getting Ilfoflex from? Are you in North America?
     
  14. Sponsored Ad
  15. AgX

    AgX Member

    Messages:
    11,204
    Joined:
    Apr 5, 2007
    Location:
    Germany
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
    Wayne, I guess you are located in the US. At first glance I can't find a dealer there. Ask Ilford. They are in Conneticut.
     
  16. darkroom_rookie

    darkroom_rookie Member

    Messages:
    357
    Joined:
    Jul 5, 2010
    Shooter:
    Medium Format
    Mottle seems to be/have been an issue with Kodak Radiance R3 papers as well. So it's all about the Melinex polyester base... But what about the satisfying color balance? How do you manage that? Shame this thread is about to get buried since most people gave up on optical printing of slide film.
    And really, where does one obtain Ilfoflex in Europe?
     
  17. Stephen Frizza

    Stephen Frizza Member

    Messages:
    1,400
    Joined:
    Mar 2, 2007
    Shooter:
    Medium Format
    colour accuracy Isnt a problem with Ilfoflex. I have printed off color tests with various colour charts. A grey scale chart is neutral, and there is no issues with colour crossover. The main issue is contrast. The Ilfoflex causes the developer to exhaust quickly and as a result the contrast drops so you need to balance the replenishment just right to maintain consistent results. It ends up being an expensive process not just because of the paper but the developer requirements.
     
  18. AgX

    AgX Member

    Messages:
    11,204
    Joined:
    Apr 5, 2007
    Location:
    Germany
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
    Interesting, I was in the belief all RA-papers behaved the same concerning processing.
     
  19. MartinP

    MartinP Member

    Messages:
    1,346
    Joined:
    Jun 23, 2007
    Shooter:
    35mm
    If I recall correctly, Ilfoflex isn't a paper but a polyester material. The datasheet is here.

    Recommended replenishment is 250ml per square-metre for Ilfoflex, while for Kodak's standard RA4 process it is 170ml (depends somewhat on the machine and manner of replenishment, according to their docs) so there is a slight difference in recommended use. Why? - I have no idea, but also don't forget reversal processing is not exactly the expected manner of using the materials, so there will be further differences due to that for sure.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 25, 2013
  20. perkeleellinen

    perkeleellinen Member

    Messages:
    2,255
    Joined:
    Apr 14, 2008
    Location:
    Warwickshire
    Shooter:
    35mm
    So where can you buy this paper / material from?
     
  21. MartinP

    MartinP Member

    Messages:
    1,346
    Joined:
    Jun 23, 2007
    Shooter:
    35mm
    Good question. Out of curiosity, I looked on the website and the nearest to me seemed to be in Germany (next door country) but that supplier no longer had it listed on their website.

    The Ilford (ie. the Swiss company, not Harman in UK) website is here, so one could ask them directly I suppose. The sizes listed were only large rolls from what I saw, so it might not be very convenient for amateur darkroom use.
     
  22. AgX

    AgX Member

    Messages:
    11,204
    Joined:
    Apr 5, 2007
    Location:
    Germany
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
    It is still listed by that distributor (on their German language site).
     
  23. AgX

    AgX Member

    Messages:
    11,204
    Joined:
    Apr 5, 2007
    Location:
    Germany
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
    The issue with Ilford is that the marketing of their halide products is erratic at its best.
     
  24. darkroom_rookie

    darkroom_rookie Member

    Messages:
    357
    Joined:
    Jul 5, 2010
    Shooter:
    Medium Format
    Stephen, care to share some more details on this reversal process you're doing with Ilfoflex?
     
  25. kuparikettu

    kuparikettu Member

    Messages:
    118
    Joined:
    Apr 10, 2012
    Location:
    Tampere, Fin
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
    I wonder if some distributor here in Europe would be interested in buying Ilfoflex and cutting it to sheets. That would be great, because I have had some success with reversal RA-4 and the qualities Ilfoflex have might be just the thing needed to achieve better prints.
     
  26. darkroom_rookie

    darkroom_rookie Member

    Messages:
    357
    Joined:
    Jul 5, 2010
    Shooter:
    Medium Format
    Perhaps we should ask Nordfoto in Germany. Anyone else interested?