Possible defects in Adox films

Discussion in '[Partner] ADOX' started by Mahler_one, May 26, 2009.

  1. Mahler_one

    Mahler_one Member

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    I think it's time for Adox to address the growing number of APUG posts that are reporting possible issues with the emulsions of Adox 25 and 50 ASA films. Apparently more and more members are describing pin holes in negatives made with Adox films. Some of us are eschewing the use of Adox films until the issue of such pinholes is addressed, and corrected. Can Adox make some comment now as to a possible cause ( or causes ) for such pinholes? Are members making some errors in the darkroom with processing, or are there indentifiable problems with certain emulsions from certain "batches"? If there are problems with darkroom techniques, then Adox should consider providing more definitive guidance as to techniques that should be avoided (e.g.various chemical formulations, certain developers, etc., etc. ). If the problem is in certain emulsions, then such emulsions should be replaced. There is no shame in finding that certain batches are defective, and taking steps to repair the manufacturing errors that have led to such defects. All on APUG would applaud the diligence and honesty of such an approach. If the fault is not in the manufacturing, then please consider providing some help to those here who are having problems using Adox films. Thanks for helping.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: May 26, 2009
  2. ADOX Fotoimpex

    ADOX Fotoimpex Partner

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    We respond to all questions and claims which are brought to our attention.
    Our email adress is info(at)fotoimpex(dot)de and for claims also reklamation(at)fotoimpex(dot)de.
    Sofar no one has filed a complaint with us for pinholes in any recently produced 25 or 50 ASA film so I would be interested in actually seeing the artefacts you describe.
    For now I can only comment in a "general way" and wait for your images or links to be posted.

    There are two known main reasons for holes:

    1) Bubbles in the emulsion during coating before stiffing
    2) Emulsion lift off during processing

    Actually only number 1 is generally refered to as a pinhole.
    That is because it will be a small round hole with a circular shape and defined border.

    When the emulsion is beeing remooved during development the holes are rather undefined with a random border and look "dirty".

    If the pinhole was produced during the coating process obviously nothing can be done about that by the customer. It´s a manufacturing defect and somehow slipped through the QC. The films you describe (ADOX CHS line of films) are produced in a museum-like facility in Croatia.
    The facility does everything in a way it was done 60 years ago. The quality inspection is carried out like it was done everywhere before computers and laser detection came up. This way you take a sample, expose it to medium grey and develop it. Then you make 1000 films. Then you take a sample again. If both samples (beginning and end) are fine you assume the rest in the middel is fine as well and release the films to the market. If anything shows you discard the films and keep checking every few meters to see if the defects stop showing. Then you go on. There is nothing else you can do. 100% control means exposing and developing (=destroying) 100% of the film. It´s a light sensitive product after all.

    The CHS films represent the true old ADOX emulsions and are true classic films by all means. This refers to the way they are produced, images they reproduce and the way the film behaves.

    Differences to modern films are for example:

    - a unique colour reproduction which is giving the images its own characteristic feel. Portraits look differently on an ADOX CHS than on a more modern film, clowds separate better from the sky etc.

    - an old fashioned grain style and an historic "dump in the bucket" way of precipitating the raw emulsion

    - an old fashioned way of coating it in one layer and drying it over wooden sticks in a Festoon drying tunnel (the last one of this kind in operation)

    - an old protective layer which is made acording to the original 50ies recipes of the film

    This last point leads to a higher voulnerability of these emulsions compared to more modern film which are hard like a rock.

    So theoretically an ADOX CHS film will scratch and show defects/artefacts caused by the process much faster than a modern film will.

    There are several ways to prevent this from happening:

    1) Don´t use a high alkaline developer together with a stong acidic stop bath (we also mention this in the box instructions). What can happen is that gas will be produced within the emulsion on the neutralization reaction and tiny patches of the emulsion are literally blasted away from the base.
    2) Harden the emulsion in the stop bath by adding hardener if needed
    3) Keep al things like rust, dirt, sand etc, filtered out of your water

    -------------------------

    I am telling you al this technological background because I want all of you to understand that with ADOX there are two different qualities available under one brand. All the stuff we sell at very competitive prices is made for us but not made by us.
    Our possibilities to control the quality are limited to what the actual manufacturer has in place.
    These products are for example:

    CHS line of Films
    PAN 25 films
    ORT 25 films
    EasyPrint paper
    VarioClassic paper
    Nuance paper

    The "Premium Line" products however are made with us beeing deeply involved in the manufacturing side and with our own quality management in place.

    These products are for example:

    MCP
    MCC (coming soon)
    Variotone
    ADOX Pan 100 and 400 films (coming soon)

    -------------------------

    I hope this could help for now. More detailed answers to come when I can see the artefatcs.

    Fell free to ask if any of the above is unclear.

    Best regards,

    Mirko
     
    Last edited by a moderator: May 28, 2009
  3. mikebarger

    mikebarger Member

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    Do you have any date range in mind for the MCC, I've been holding off buying hoping to see this product in the market.

    But, I'm getting low on supplies and need to stock up.

    Thanks

    Mike
     
  4. ntenny

    ntenny Member

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    Hi Mirko,

    Thanks for the informative reply. As an enthusiastic user of some of these films (I haven't had pinhole problems personally), I'd be interested to know if you see any likelihood of the Croatian facility becoming less "museum-like" in the foreseeable future.

    I wouldn't want them to change the process in ways that would impair the "classic" character of the film, but I would imagine that, for instance, more modern approaches to the coating/drying stages and the protective layer could improve the consistency and usability of the film without a real change of character. But I have no idea if such developments are at all on the horizon, and if you're at liberty to share your impressions it would be interesting to hear them.

    Thanks

    -NT
     
  5. Photo Engineer

    Photo Engineer Subscriber

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    You can sometimes distinguish coating pinholes by their comet shape. This is a dot as Mirko describes but with a tail.

    This is a very distinct and recognizable coating defect. If it is not comet shaped, then the defect has a lower chance of being a coating defect and a greater chance of being something else.

    PE
     
  6. ADOX Fotoimpex

    ADOX Fotoimpex Partner

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    PE is right, I forgott about the tail.

    Mirko
     
  7. JLP

    JLP Subscriber

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    Adox Pan 100 and 400

    Mirko,
    Can you tell a little about the new Adox Film, what formats do you plan on releasing?
    Thanks
     
  8. kompressor

    kompressor Restricted Access

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    Is Adox 25 the same film as Efke 25 ?
     
  9. Ian Grant

    Ian Grant Subscriber

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    Mirko, yet again you speak from the heart. There can be no doubting you are 110% committed to doing your best to supply us as photographers, trust works both ways.

    The only other company to be as honest (on the Internet) is Ilford/Harman Technology.

    You don't give us bull-shit and excuses just plain facts. I've used EFKE (Adox) films since the 70's I haven't yet seen a coating problem that's ruined an image, and haven't spotted any on other negs recently. I am fully aware that in the panic when Ilford went into administration quality controls were ignored and anything coated went flying out of the factory mainly to J&C. Some people thought that was the final melt-down and the nblast production of B&W materials !!

    It needs to be borne in mind that the Original Post in this thread isn't about actual problems just what's been read on the internet/APUG.

    Sure Adox/EFKE films aren't perfect but they are extremely good, and different, are they classic, old school - no they aren't at all, they were the most modern and advanced film of their time, if Kodak or Ilford had made them it might be a different story today, Pan F is the nearest equivalent.

    Ian
     
  10. Shangheye

    Shangheye Member

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    I use CHS and have not had pinholes. I note that the last posting on the subject a few days ago showed the user had not pre-soaked as recommended or used water as stop as recommended. That is the likely source of the problem in that case. Please keep making it the way you do.

    I think individuals who have an issue should deal directly with photoimpex, but I for one appreciate the opportunity to voice my support for what you do and how you are doing it...Kal
     
  11. Jim Noel

    Jim Noel Member

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    Perhaps part of the problem reported by some users is a lack of care in processing. I don't think I have read of a problem by a person who has been developing film for 40 or 50 years, because we learned to handle film very carefully, because emulsions of the past were extremely soft. Those who've grown up with pre-hardened emulsions are careless in their handling of film. I see this almost daily in the school laboratory.

    I use these films, as well as others, and it is extremely rare for me to have any of the stated problems. Pinholes caused during the manufacturing process pop up every two or three years for me. I develop these films in sizes up to 7 x 17 inches using a variety of methods including several at a time in a tray. I do not use an acidic stop bath.I use a water stop bath for a long enough time to dissipate most of the developer prior to putting it in the fixer. I don't wipe film when it is hung to dry.

    It seems easier to be careless in handling film and blame it on the manufacturer than it is to learn proper film handling procedures. I compliment Miko, and his company for keeping film available, and given us up front information.
     
  12. photo8x10

    photo8x10 Member

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    I've just to use CHS 8x20 and 8x10 films and at the first used I didn't have pinholes or other problems. I use to pre-soak the film in water and a little hardener and after I use a pyro ABC developer, stop bath very light and a normal fix. The negatives I've taken so far are very good, no problems, and for me Adox CHS 100 is been a discover, I hope to use more of this film in future. Thanks to Adox and to Mirko for every news and for their Job.

    Stefano
     
  13. Mahler_one

    Mahler_one Member

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    You are correct Ian, and thanks for pointing such out again. I did state on my posting that I have "eschewed" the use of the film for the time being. However, since I was contemplating the use of such film, I was concerned about the comments others have posted concerning such pin holes.

    Mirko, my very sincere thanks for taking the time and effort to respond. I did not know that Adox had a limited role in the quality control of the Adox films.

    Mirko, who makes the CMS emulsion?

    Ed
     
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  15. ADOX Fotoimpex

    ADOX Fotoimpex Partner

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    Ed,

    it´s not that we have a limited role in the quality control of the ADOX films in general. As I said those products made for us in third party factories will reflect the quality control in effect in those respective facilities. Jacking it up would mean a higher price and then no one would buy it. The QC in place for the CHS films is not bad. It has been a standardized process for over 50 years.

    The product needs to be seen as a whole. Quality, price and special charakteristics. You get it all in a package.

    The CMS film has a three level QC but this film is also more expensive.

    Best regards,

    Mirko
     
  16. ADOX Fotoimpex

    ADOX Fotoimpex Partner

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    AP 100 and AP 400

    Jan,

    we have been slowly but steadily working on the former APX emulsions.
    Currently we are substituting a few components which are not available anymore. The outcome seems to be a better speed with the 400 and a slightly finer grain on the 100. But these are informations from the testing stage.

    This project has not been accelerated too much because of the millions of films still beeing in the market made by Agfa/Leverkusen in the last 6 months of their existance.

    When we remake the film it will be in all formats: 35mm, 120, sheets.
    Possibly 110 as well.

    Best regards,

    Mirko
     
    Last edited by a moderator: May 29, 2009
  17. Chazzy

    Chazzy Member

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    I just hope that the re-introduction of the Agfa films will include the 25 speed film. That is the one which I am most interested to try.
     
  18. ntenny

    ntenny Member

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    *Metric* sheets? Pretty please?

    -NT
     
  19. ADOX Fotoimpex

    ADOX Fotoimpex Partner

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    Charles,

    sorry to say but we can only re-introduce what has been in production at Agfa´s until the stop.
    APX 25 has been discontinued before 2000. Many ingredients are unavailable now. Remaking it would be the same as making a new 25 speed film.
    We have ADOX CHS 25 and Pan 25 out.
    Can you, or anyone else, tell me what he/she misses in those films and found in APX 25. If so, we can look into making a new 25 speed film covering all demands out there.

    Best regards,

    Mirko
     
  20. ADOX Fotoimpex

    ADOX Fotoimpex Partner

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    Nathan,

    I´m gonna put someone on the guilautine cutter to make a few metric sheets once a year as well. As long as we can sell 50 units per item/year we can make it. If we sell less we can only keep the product at a higher price. So it all depends on overall demand and what you´re willing to spent.

    Best regards,

    Mirko
     
  21. JLP

    JLP Subscriber

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    Mirko,
    What formats are you cutting the 100 and 400 ISO film in?
     
  22. ADOX Fotoimpex

    ADOX Fotoimpex Partner

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    Jan,

    cutting a film to verious formats really isn´t a big deal.
    We will provide standard formats out of stock and offer special formats cut on demand.
    With the cut on demand sizes it will be in a way that one box will cost almost the same as 5 boxes and after 10 or more boxes it gets almost as economical to buy this product as if it was 4x5". This reflects the actual manufactirung costs and is a very small quantity. You can then maybe team up with others and split the order if you need full plate or somthing else unusual.

    Best regards,

    Mirko
     
  23. aluncrockford

    aluncrockford Member

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    Having just used Adox 100 10/8 for the last 3 months I have to say the film is of a very high quality ,I have not had a single problem with the emulsion , and processing in PMK gives a quality that more modern films can come close to ,I would highly recommend this film , just follow the instructions and all will be well. A big thank you to Adox for making such a fine film available
     
  24. JLP

    JLP Subscriber

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    Mirko,
    Thank you for your responses. It's been a while and somehow this thread disapeared for me.
    I look forward to see the APX line back in sheet formats.

    Thank you for introducing new (Old) products, the MCC paper just received looks fabulous.
     
  25. thebdt

    thebdt Member

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    Forgive me if this information is already available somewhere else, but is there a mailing list or something I can join so that I can be notified when an Agfa APX 100 equivalent/replacement is made available? It is one of my favorite emulsions; many people in these forums have been helpful in helping me source it (e.g. Rollei Retro), but I'm interested in this film for the long term, as well.

    Thanks...
     
  26. DutchShooter

    DutchShooter Member

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    thebdt, you can subsribe to the dedicated adox-forum, so you get an email when there is a new topic or replies to old topics within this specific part of APUG.
    Because I think it's safe to assume that a new ADOX-version of APX100/400 will be discussed here, it would be a good way to keep up-to-date :smile: