Possible to dilute c-41 1:1 for one-shot development?

Discussion in 'Color: Film, Paper, and Chemistry' started by morkolv, Jul 29, 2005.

  1. morkolv

    morkolv Member

    Messages:
    204
    Joined:
    Feb 4, 2005
    Location:
    Norway
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
    Hi!

    Has any any experience with diluting c-41 (Tetenal) when used as one-shot developer (in a jobo expert drum) ?

    I develop 4x5 (and soon 5x7 :smile: in a jobo expert using 250 ml of chemicals as one-shot for up to 6 sheet of 4x5, the yield of the chemicals should be much more, but due to assumed oxidation of the chemicals I use it only once. Could it be diluted and the time increased ? Or can i re-use the chemicals within a timeframe of 1 day, one week? more ? (using procetan in the containers)

    Any one with experience in this area ?

    Best Regards
     
  2. Ed Sukach

    Ed Sukach Member

    Messages:
    4,518
    Joined:
    Nov 27, 2002
    Location:
    Ipswich, Mas
    Shooter:
    Medium Format
    Tetenal C-41 is my favorite color negative developer. I *have* re-cycled it with increased times, according to the information given in the data sheet, but never diluted from the standard mixes. Most of the time I will use it as a one-shot developer .. possibly wasteful, I know, but the quality of the processing in *very* important to me.

    I don't know if Tetenal has copies of their data sheets on their web site. If not, I'll retrieve one from my darkroom, and post the increased times information.

    Protectan is unavailable here. I'm using butane from a butane refillable candle/ cigarette lighter source.
     
  3. Photo Engineer

    Photo Engineer Subscriber

    Messages:
    25,894
    Joined:
    Apr 19, 2005
    Location:
    Rochester, NY
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
    C41 developer cannot be diluted.

    It can be reused if you follow the time chart supplied by the manufacturer to compensate for the amount of seasoning by prior use. It can also survive dilution introduced by a prewet.

    A prewet is very useful in promoting uniformity.

    PE
     
  4. Nick Zentena

    Nick Zentena Member

    Messages:
    4,677
    Joined:
    Nov 21, 2004
    Location:
    Italia
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
    So prewets can be used with C-41? That would make temp control even more trival.
     
  5. Photo Engineer

    Photo Engineer Subscriber

    Messages:
    25,894
    Joined:
    Apr 19, 2005
    Location:
    Rochester, NY
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
    I have used a prewet with all film with my Jobo and even in SS tanks for over 30 years. I get results that compare with EK and local pro lab work in terms of speed and color balance.

    PE
     
  6. jl

    jl Member

    Messages:
    6
    Joined:
    Aug 25, 2003
    Location:
    Vancouver
    Shooter:
    Large Format
    How long is recommended for the prewet? Is any change in developing time necessary with a prewet?

    Jim
     
  7. Ronald Moravec

    Ronald Moravec Member

    Messages:
    1,261
    Joined:
    Jan 17, 2005
    Location:
    Downers Grov
    When Ilford first came out with XP1, there was also a processing kit. The kit times were 5 minutes develope, then bleach fix. The film could also go thru C-41 for 3 1/4 min.

    It became commonly known their kit was simply diluted C-41 for extended time.

    I used Unicolor c41 for years and then stopped. After several years I went back and started to get really saturated punchy colors. I thought Kodak had ruined Ektar 25. Actually I found Unicolor had changed the developer to produce the really saturated colors. They said nothing could be done about it. Well I diluted it about 50% water so it was not so concentrated and then it produced decent negs again.

    All in all, I say you can dilute it for one shot use. Try 1:1 and 5 min for a start.
     
  8. Gerald Koch

    Gerald Koch Member

    Messages:
    1,670
    Joined:
    Dec 14, 2004
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
    The reason diluted C-41 developer will work with Ilford XP-1 film is that this film has only a single layer whereas a true color negative will have three layers, one for each primary color. Using diluted C-41 developer on color negative film will produce negatives that cannot be balanced. Either the bottom layer will receive insufficient development or the top layer will be overdeveloped. This is a false economy.
     
  9. Ronald Moravec

    Ronald Moravec Member

    Messages:
    1,261
    Joined:
    Jan 17, 2005
    Location:
    Downers Grov
    The ones I made with diluted Unicolor printed fine. No excessive contrast or color crossovers. Filter pack was in the area of normal.
     
  10. Photo Engineer

    Photo Engineer Subscriber

    Messages:
    25,894
    Joined:
    Apr 19, 2005
    Location:
    Rochester, NY
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
    If you use a prewet, no change in development time is needed. Just make sure that you drain well to minimize dilution.

    PE
     
  11. F80p

    F80p Member

    Messages:
    65
    Joined:
    Jan 9, 2010
    Location:
    India,Hydera
    Shooter:
    35mm
    *Bump*
    I am a beginner in film development. But according to logic i feel dilution should work. You will have to increase the time though. Ofcourse the challenge is to find the correct time to get the right colour balance.
    I maybe wrong but I really need to know this so started this thread again. Has anybody else done this with acceptable results?
     
  12. F80p

    F80p Member

    Messages:
    65
    Joined:
    Jan 9, 2010
    Location:
    India,Hydera
    Shooter:
    35mm
  13. markbarendt

    markbarendt Subscriber

    Messages:
    7,591
    Joined:
    May 18, 2008
    Location:
    Beaverton, OR
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
    You may be able to make this work in practical terms but I see little point in the exercise.

    The "fresh mix" and "replenishment" rates are essentially the same for a given number of rolls. The difference is only in whether you add starter and water.

    I started in C-41 with the CPAC/Trebla 55fp475 kit plus a bottle of C-41 starter, ~ $75 plus shipping.

    Mini lab supply houses like Liberty, Pakor and Armadillo Photo can provide these kits or similar. These places expect you to be knowledgeable about what you want.

    If I remember correctly the CPAC/Trebla kit can technically do about 300 36exp rolls. I planned on half that. That is a lot more than Tetenal and the others small retail kits can do.
     
  14. Photo Engineer

    Photo Engineer Subscriber

    Messages:
    25,894
    Joined:
    Apr 19, 2005
    Location:
    Rochester, NY
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
    I have just reviewed my 68 and 75 F processes of C41 films and find that I should amend my last posts, or at least add to them.

    It is true that the C41 system does not perform well at these temperatures "As Is", but they might perform better when diluted and with extended times. I have only used 20 - 30 minutes at low temp with undiluted developers. I have used a post development soak as well, with poor results.

    It is also true that you should not dilute C41 and try the 100F process with extended times. I might amend this with enough evidence to the contrary.

    Therefore, it appears that you probably can dilute the developer and extend the time and get good results. But, here are my caveats..... There were no normal check examples in the references given here and there was no temperature given in those same examples.

    With that in mind, it may warrant further examination.

    Remember though that the printing or scanning process can remove a lot of "defects" from the original negative and lead us to incorrect conclusions and therefore reference "correctly processed" negatives of the same scene are needed to make a convincing argument.

    PE
     
  15. Daire Quinlan

    Daire Quinlan Member

    Messages:
    153
    Joined:
    Sep 8, 2008
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
    I've had some success with semi stand dev and diluted C-41 developer as you've linked above. I detail it in the tags, it was 9+1 dilution (ie 50ml of C-41 developer to 450ml water to make up 500ml IIRC), and I semi-stand developed for 45 minutes with a couple of inversions at the 30 minute mark. Medium format gave me good results, colour balance was out though naturally, although not un-correctably, and it was quite contrasty. 35mm was another story.

    This gives the few that I have up from that roll of portra that I ran through the above process.
    http://www.flickr.com/search/?w=31589949@N00&q=c-41+stand+development+120&m=text
     
  16. Photo Engineer

    Photo Engineer Subscriber

    Messages:
    25,894
    Joined:
    Apr 19, 2005
    Location:
    Rochester, NY
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
    And the temperature?

    PE
     
  17. Daire Quinlan

    Daire Quinlan Member

    Messages:
    153
    Joined:
    Sep 8, 2008
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
    It was a room temperature stand dev, so roughly 20c or slightly under I suppose ? Not too sure.
     
  18. tiberiustibz

    tiberiustibz Member

    Messages:
    1,749
    Joined:
    Oct 22, 2007
    Location:
    Tufts Univer
    Shooter:
    35mm
    The developer capacity is 10 sheets per liter. You're already pushing it don't hurt the poor film anymore.
     
  19. Athiril

    Athiril Subscriber

    Messages:
    2,962
    Joined:
    Feb 6, 2009
    Location:
    Melbourne, V
    Shooter:
    Medium Format
    oops was about to post your results :smile: