Problem with Kodak HIE

Discussion in 'B&W: Film, Paper, Chemistry' started by naaldvoerder, Jul 13, 2007.

  1. naaldvoerder

    naaldvoerder Member

    Messages:
    656
    Joined:
    Apr 4, 2004
    Shooter:
    35mm
    I recently developed some Kodak HIE using Ilfotec HC at 20 c, with the Ilford agitation recommendations and found these blotches on the negative. Can anyone tell me what went wrong?

    Thanks Jaap Jan Helder
     

    Attached Files:

    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 13, 2007
  2. htmlguru4242

    htmlguru4242 Member

    Messages:
    973
    Joined:
    Aug 9, 2005
    Location:
    Sandy Hook,
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
    There are alot of causes for this. Try agitating a little less, or at least more gently. Also, if you're using an acid stop, don't do so in the future.
     
  3. lowellh

    lowellh Inactive

    Messages:
    67
    Joined:
    Mar 22, 2004
    Hello htmlguru4242:
    What is the logic in blaming acid stop?
     
  4. erikg

    erikg Member

    Messages:
    1,455
    Joined:
    Feb 10, 2003
    Location:
    pawtucket rh
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
    Well, it's hard to tell from the image, but I do know that HIE can behave in strange ways. I got a similar pattern on some film that was traced to light passing through the base reflecting off of the pressure plate. The pattern matched the dimples in the pressure plate exactly. I replaced the pressure plate with a smooth one and the problem was solved. Perhaps this is happening to your film too?
    As a side note I never had an issue with acid stop with HIE. I have probably shot 300+ rolls of the stuff over the years, but none recently.
     
  5. TheFlyingCamera

    TheFlyingCamera Membership Council Council

    Messages:
    9,552
    Joined:
    May 24, 2005
    Location:
    Washington DC
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
    HIE is a very finicky emulsion - I've had problems with fingerprints on it if your hands are not meticulously clean and dry. There were also issues with certain sizes of it developing pinholes in the emulsion. What you showed doesn't look like pinholes- just uneven density spots. They don't look like air bells either, because they're not circular. Do you use a pre-wash?

    I would recommend doing a pre-wash, and using a water stop instead, just in case.
     
  6. Rich Ullsmith

    Rich Ullsmith Subscriber

    Messages:
    1,061
    Joined:
    Jan 26, 2007
    Shooter:
    Medium Format
    Almost looks like pepper-dot fog. Never had this problem with any sulfite developer, of which Ilfotec is not one. Just speculating here.
     
  7. htmlguru4242

    htmlguru4242 Member

    Messages:
    973
    Joined:
    Aug 9, 2005
    Location:
    Sandy Hook,
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
    On first glance, those looked like pinholes for me. I've both heard (and seen, on other's negs.) pinholes appear on acid-stopped HIE with certain developers. Excessive agitation seems to do it as well.

    On second glance, those look a little bit too soft to be pinholes.
     
  8. Photo Engineer

    Photo Engineer Subscriber

    Messages:
    25,909
    Joined:
    Apr 19, 2005
    Location:
    Rochester, NY
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
    Pinholes will not occur in HIE film. No modern film from Ilford, Fuji or Kodak will suffer from pinholes due to a stop bath.

    I've got to stop this MYTH.

    PE
     
  9. Eric Rose

    Eric Rose Subscriber

    Messages:
    4,454
    Joined:
    Nov 21, 2002
    Location:
    Calgary AB,
    Shooter:
    4x5 Format
    So where do they(pinholes) come from and how do you explain the fact that they no longer are a problem once a switch to water stop takes place. Not disputing what you are saying, just looking for a logical explanation.

    Thanks,

    Eric
     
  10. naaldvoerder

    naaldvoerder Member

    Messages:
    656
    Joined:
    Apr 4, 2004
    Shooter:
    35mm
    For further information I did not prewash and i did use acid stop and fix. The blothches are not all round. Would pinholes be?

    Thanks Jaap Jan
     
  11. Photo Engineer

    Photo Engineer Subscriber

    Messages:
    25,909
    Joined:
    Apr 19, 2005
    Location:
    Rochester, NY
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
    Well, I have found that 90% of all pinholes can be eliminated with either one of two approaches. Either a pre-wet or better initial agitation will eliminate them. The other 5% vanish if you use both. Or vice versa. It has never been proven to be the case unless the film was grossly underhardened.

    I demonstrated what can happen to my last workshop members. If you use an acid stop, you do NOT get pinholes. If the film or paper is soft enough for carbon dioxide to hurt it, you get blisters just like those seen on sunburned skin. Then they either burst or they dry down. In the former case, they leave ugly scars on the film, and in the latter case they leave a fish scale appearnce.

    I ran these tests over and over at EK testing the new hardner in the mid 60s. I know what it looks like and how it behaves. I also worked on the crossover from the old to new hardener and from Kodalk to Carbonate in the EP2/3 process. No problems were seen.

    Remember that you can use an acid stop with C41 and RA processes and that is used at 100F. It causes no problem.

    Hope this helps.

    PE
     
  12. Photo Engineer

    Photo Engineer Subscriber

    Messages:
    25,909
    Joined:
    Apr 19, 2005
    Location:
    Rochester, NY
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
    I would guess air bubbles caused the pinholes. Try a prewet and better initial agitation.

    PE
     
  13. Craig

    Craig Subscriber

    Messages:
    784
    Joined:
    Apr 8, 2004
    Location:
    Calgary
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
    Would you reccomend pre wetting all B&W films prior to pouring in the developer? I was under the impression that some films were designed to have the developer hit them dry and pre wetting washed off a coating. When I have prewetted the water usually comes out with a colour tint.
     
  14. Photo Engineer

    Photo Engineer Subscriber

    Messages:
    25,909
    Joined:
    Apr 19, 2005
    Location:
    Rochester, NY
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
    I always prewet all films.

    The color is a mixture of the trimmer, acutance and AH dyes in the film. They have no effect on the image quality after exposure.

    PE
     
  15. DaveOttawa

    DaveOttawa Subscriber

    Messages:
    285
    Joined:
    Sep 13, 2005
    Location:
    Ottawa, Cana
    Shooter:
    35mm RF
    I agree these are not pinholes, pinholes would be sharper and blacker (In the print) or airbell marks. I have seen these larger, softer blemishes on only one roll of HIE a few years ago.

    HIE, in my experience, can exhibit pinholes but, FTR, the information I have from Kodak themselves is that it is most likely caused by non-refrigerated storage.

    In the cases I have seen that is certainly possible and pre-wetting and water stop baths had no beneficial effect whatsoever when I tried them (Kodak said acid stop would not be the cause because I was using D76 which has no carbonate so no CO2 with acid, that's what they told me). I am going to be more careful about refrigerated storage and see if that helps.
    So unfortunately I don't actually know what these are but I do recommend refrigerated storage for HIE as much as you can since the manufacturer recommends it.
     
  16. Mateo

    Mateo Subscriber

    Messages:
    502
    Joined:
    Sep 7, 2002
    Location:
    Hollister, C
    Shooter:
    8x10 Format
    back to the topic...I had this happen with a roll of HIE recently and I chalked it up to a bad batch of film. Got no proof of that but I am sure that I didn't cause the problem and what I got looks exactly like what you got.
     
  17. naaldvoerder

    naaldvoerder Member

    Messages:
    656
    Joined:
    Apr 4, 2004
    Shooter:
    35mm
     
  18. dr5chrome

    dr5chrome Member

    Messages:
    463
    Joined:
    Dec 29, 2006
    Shooter:
    Medium Format
    ..best to look at the emulsion itself. if you see sharp ridges it usually is air-bells.
    you've got to be using some really harsh mix to be getting air bells in the stop. i have found no difference between pre-wet or no pre-wet. as long as your agitation is sufficient you should have no problems. HIE is a sensitive emulsion. I would gather this is a film problem than anything else. It is best to use HIE and not store or freeze it long term .This film is very susceptible to many environmental issues. If moisture gets into the film space when it is in the freeze you will have nothing but problems. If you have to freeze your film it is best to buy a vacuum food saver. Someone else mentioned this on this forum. This what we do and it is a good long term solution to film getting damaged by moisture.

    dw


     
  19. rusty71

    rusty71 Member

    Messages:
    212
    Joined:
    Dec 26, 2004
    Location:
    St. Louis, M
    Shooter:
    Medium Format
    Check your camera's pressure plate. If it has "dimples" or small impressions they can reflect back on the film and you'll see this when printed. To solve it, just cut a piece of 120 paper backing to fit and secure it black side out to the pressure plate.
     
  20. winger

    winger Subscriber

    Messages:
    2,923
    Joined:
    Jan 13, 2005
    Location:
    southwest PA
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
    I hope no one minds me bringing this thread back. I was cleaning my downloads and saw the image from this again. The rolls I did recently (see the "well water" problems post) did the same thing on some frames. Mostly on scenes like the one posted (tree with blue sky). I had been thinking I had screwed it up while trying to get the well water residue off. Maybe there was a bad batch of HIE? Could that happen? I used Sprint as developer - same as I usually do for HIE. And mine had been in the fridge at the store and in my house until the day before use (and wasn't expired).
     
  21. Mackinaw

    Mackinaw Member

    Messages:
    391
    Joined:
    Jan 2, 2005
    Location:
    One hour sou
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
    I agree with the dimpled pressure plate theory. Year's back, I ran a roll of HIE through a Canonet G-III which uses two large "rivets" to attach the pressure plate to the camera back. When I processed the film the two rivets were softly, but annoyingly, in the background. I've learned to look at the pressure plate before putting a roll of HIE in a 35mm camera.

    Jim B.
     
  22. walter23

    walter23 Member

    Messages:
    1,189
    Joined:
    Sep 19, 2006
    Location:
    Victoria BC
    Shooter:
    4x5 Format
    I see tons of that stuff on my really expired 4x5 HIE. Always blamed it on the age of the film but maybe it's something else?

    I use ID-11, acid stop, and ilford rapid fixer. Rotary processing.
     
  23. spb854

    spb854 Member

    Messages:
    86
    Joined:
    Mar 2, 2007
    Location:
    Arkansas
    Shooter:
    Medium Format
    Isn't HIE sensitive to gamma radiation?

    Gamma radiation can cause fogging if stored over a long period of time
    I've heard but it's not as prevalent as light, in radiation terms.
    I don't know how Alpha and Beta radiation would affect it, if it would.
     
  24. patrickjames

    patrickjames Member

    Messages:
    743
    Joined:
    Mar 25, 2005
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
    If you really want to solve this problem just put Edwal LFN into your developer. I had the same problem pre internet days and was always exacerbated by the air bells. LFN fixed this for me and I have never developed any roll of film since without using it, and have never since had an air bell. HIE is horrible for air bells, I don't know why. Pre wetting is also a good idea, but I only do that with Pyrocat and Pyro to get an even stain. LFN solved my problems with HIE. I doubt you would get a bad batch of film with Kodak. They are just too good at quality control. Foma and others.......

    Patrick