Processing 8x10 film in a Beseler drum

Discussion in 'B&W: Film, Paper, Chemistry' started by Mainecoonmaniac, Jan 19, 2012.

  1. Mainecoonmaniac

    Mainecoonmaniac Subscriber

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    I want to start processing sheet film in a Beseler 8x10 drum. I remember when I did the old EP2 process, it required 1 1/2 ounces of chemistry for the drum. What's the required amount of chemistry for 8x10 BW film processing? Also, what time adjustment I have to consider when the film is constantly being agitated? Which is better, one direction or back and forth? Any input will be appreciated.
     
  2. Bob-D659

    Bob-D659 Member

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    Well you only need 75ml of RA4 colour dev for a print, but ..... See what the developer instructions say, D76 is 250ml(not 150ml) if I remember correctly(I didn't). I have a Simma motor that wobbles the drum sideways and rotates it at something like 30-45 rpm. Never tried film, but works fine for both b&w and colour paper.

    Oops, 250 ml per 8x10, see http://www.kodak.com/global/en/professional/support/techPubs/j78/j78.pdf
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 19, 2012
  3. Mainecoonmaniac

    Mainecoonmaniac Subscriber

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    Hi Bob. I think you're right. 250mls is about 8 fluid ounces. An 8x10 sheet of film has about the same number of sq inches as a 36 exposure roll of film. Most 35mm film require about 250mls of chemistry per roll. But I still need to know how much less time I need to process film with constant agitation.
    Thanks for your help!
     
  4. SMBooth

    SMBooth Member

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    I use 300ml (3ml Rodinal, 1:100) in my Unicolor drum which I think is much the same, it goes on a sinusoidal simma base. You need a certain about of developer per sheet, what developer you using? That will determine how much water you need. Most note seem to say reduce development time by 15%, but test for your own process
     
  5. Konical

    Konical Subscriber

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    Good Afternoon, Mainecoonmaniac,

    Since the chemical cost is nominal for B & W, I agree with using at least eight ounces. Normally, I use ten or twelve ounces for four sheets of 4 x 5, probably a good deal more than necessary. Using much more than that in my Chromega drum can lead to some spillage if the drum is tilted a bit when I reverse it every thirty seconds. A good starting point for time is whatever is recommended by the manufacturer for continuous agitation processing.

    Konical
     
  6. jcoldslabs

    jcoldslabs Member

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    I use 250ml of chemistry (+ or -) in Cibachrome 8x10 drums for single sheets of 8x10 film. (I don't use much more than this because the fluid will start seeping from the drain holes in the bottom of the drum.) I use a motor base that reverses, but before that I would pick the drum up and turn it around once per minute when using a base that rotated in one direction only. My starting point for development times due to constant agitation is usually 15% less than recommended for small tanks.

    Just be sure to fix the negative in a tray after you've fixed it in the drum to ensure that all of the anti-halation dyes wash out before final rinse. There is not much fluid exchange along the back side of the negative that is plastered to the wall of the drum during processing.

    Jonathan
     
  7. Mainecoonmaniac

    Mainecoonmaniac Subscriber

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    Hey thanks for the tip. There seems to be a consensus that there should be a 15% reduction in time and I'll fix the film in another tray after fixing it in the drum. I knew APUGers would have the answer :smile:
     
  8. johnielvis

    johnielvis Member

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    when I had the 8x10 besellers I only used what the trough could hold..I think it was maybe 4 oz?????....at that time I was using the 2 part developer diafine though so there was no dev adjustment needed.

    I've found that with a roller base the dev times need no adjustment compared to roll film agitated every 30 seconds in 16/32 oz tanks with 120 reels. but then again, maybe I agitate a bit more vigorously than most....than you do....I'd just start with what you've been using and see if it's ok...if not...adjust to taste.

    as a side note i tried putting a tank of 120 reels in a processing drum sideways in the roller base to develop them on reels using the "roller method"...it worked great BUT, it seemed that I actually got LESS development action than hand agitation using the same dev time!!!!! no kidding.....I"m going to run another test...maybe my exposure was off???? I don't know...far too little data to determine yet.

    I used to put screens in them drums too--to keep the film from sticking to the walls---I've had imprints in ilford 8x10 film when I did this---the screens imprinted themselves....somehow if the dye comes out during the dev step but doesn't come out fully, then when it comes out in the fix step, it doesn't come out the same---

    you'll probably get unevenness due to this--I still have problems with it despite all my best efforts...of course I'm very critical these days--most people don't seem to notice---if you're making prints, you probably won't notice at all since the imprints don't seem to show up in the prints noticeably.
     
  9. Mainecoonmaniac

    Mainecoonmaniac Subscriber

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    Hi John. It sounds like you have very high standards. I'm just going to have to do some testing. Processing with drums a way to go since I don't require a lot of chemistry compared to Kodak hard rubber tanks. And I get to process film in room light. Curently, I use a Yankee Agitank for my 4x5 film and it works well.
     
  10. johnielvis

    johnielvis Member

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    I just discovered that the motor bases roll too fast to get complete submersion--this is the cause of the film sticking problem..the speed is fine for prints, but for film..the first chemicals that hit the film, be it developer or be it pre-soak...you must rotate the drum much more slowly than the rotary processor do---this allows the liquids to stay in te bottom of the "trough" of the drum and penetrate to the other side of the film that is against the tube--this allows the anit-halation layer to dissolve--you need complete submersion to do this...I JUST discovered this early this morning.

    so--my suggestion for first step is to put the drum on the roller base and slowly rotate it by hand...very slowly for the entire development step (if no pre-soak)..Once the dye layers are dissolved and out of there the process can run at motorbase speed---note---do this for the developer RINSE step too--to get all the stuff out from in back of the film....S.L.O.W. for them steps till they dye is gone.

    I just purchase a plug-in variable frequency drive for my motorbases so it canrotate s l o w l y on it's own without my hands having to be busy.
     
  11. Mainecoonmaniac

    Mainecoonmaniac Subscriber

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    Hey thanks for the heads up. I'll look for one of plug-in variable frequency drives. Are they expensive?
     
  12. Konical

    Konical Subscriber

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    Good Evening, Mainecooniac,

    After using rotary processing for about thirty years and experiencing virtually no problems with it, I can offer nothing based on scientific measurement or experimentation, but from the extensive experience, I can suggest the following in response the last Jonnielvis post:

    1--My Beseler motor base (it's nonreversible with only one constant speed) rotates my Chromega drum at a rate of about 20 RPM, which I would guess is considered fairly fast; I haven't used any other motor base so I can't make any comparisons. I do a manual reversal after the first minute and every thirty seconds thereafter. I have never seen any failure to remove the anti-halation backings from film. I do only 4 x 5 film and have the ribs and the spacer in place to keep sheets secure; perhaps this helps randomize the circulation during processing.
    2--I always use a water pre-soak for about 2 minutes; most of the anti-halation coating seems to be disolved during this step, judging by the color of the disposed water.
    3--As I noted in my first response above, I'm generous with my solution amounts, but I'm sure that the film is above the solutions at least as much as it is below them. I can't see that this is any problem, since enough solution remains on the film surface to continue acting throughout the rotation.
    4--I haven't used the Beseler drum; perhaps there's something about it which causes difficulties my Chromega does not.
    5--My film has been predominantly Kodak, but results with occasional use of others (Foma, J & C, a little Ilford) have been just as satisfactory as with Kodak.

    I confess that I am at a loss to explain the problems Johnielvis has cited, but I doubt that the drum rotation speed is likely to be a significant factor.

    Konical
     
  13. Mainecoonmaniac

    Mainecoonmaniac Subscriber

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    Thanks Konical. Another perspective is always good. I think a 2 minute presoak is a good idea to remove the antihalation coating. I use Foma roll film and there's always bluish green tint in my developer. Never done rotary film processing before but done a lot of RA print processing in a tube. The advantages are obvious. A less chemicals are needed and processing can be done with the lights on.
    Best,
    Don
     
  14. johnielvis

    johnielvis Member

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    drives are like 25 bucks or something...stillwaiting for mine

    well, I'm at a loss to explain how I have the problems I have...other people have them too...I guess all the years I've been doing it wrong...hand processed four 11x14 sheets wiht the hand slow roll method this morning--absolute perfection...AND less chemicals than before...just see if you get the problems that everyone else seems to get.

    I've mentioned these problems before about 8x10 and 11x14 sheets but the roll film users and 4x5 rotary processors say they have no such problems, therefore I must be "doing it wrong".

    all I know is I ran one of these with liquid in it opend up with a plastic see through barrier on one side and let me tell you---rotational speed has EVERY:THING to do with the flow regeme in that rolling tube--that's where I got my facts from--experimentation and observation.

    you'll see--things that work with 4x5 do not work with 8x10 some of the time and almost never with 11x14---which is where i"M having the real problems with