Processing E-6 film as B&W and bleach out the silver color filter BEFORE developing?

Discussion in 'B&W: Film, Paper, Chemistry' started by Tronds, Jan 14, 2012.

  1. Tronds

    Tronds Member

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    I have tried to develop E-6 film as b&w, but it results in dark dense images due to the collodial silver color filter in the film.

    When making b&w slides, you develop, bleach out the developed silver, rexpose and develop again.

    This bleach used in this process does not attack the undeveloped silver bromide in the film. Just the silver.

    What if I use this bleach BEFORE developing the exposed film.
    1: Will it bleach out the collodial silver in the film?
    2: Will it attack the latent image and destroy it, or will it survive and can be developed afterwards?

    Trond
     
  2. holmburgers

    holmburgers Member

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    I'm curious to know the answer to this as well.

    The layer of Carey Lea Silver that acts as the yellow filter behind the front/blue sensitive layer; is it already "silver" in the same sense that developed silver-bromide becomes silver? In that case, why isn't it coming out with the bleach regardless of where it is in the processing steps? How long are you bleaching for?

    Although it doesn't seem like bleaching before the 1st developer would harm anything, since there's no silver image yet, it also doesn't make sense to me why the CLS would become unbleachable after that dev'er.

    Hopefully others will join in... I honestly have no idea but wanted to at least bump the thread.
     
  3. Tronds

    Tronds Member

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    When developing as a b&w film, there is no bleach in acton.
    Developer, stop, fix.
    That's it.

    Since there is no bleach, the color filter is still there.

    So, I have to choose. Develop as a positive film, OR bleach out the silver color filter before developing.

    If I develop as a positive film, the proces is as this: Developer, stop, bleach, clear, re-expose, develop, stop and fix if neccesary. Washing is always neccessary.

    But, this gives a positive flm. That isn't directly useable in the darkroom.

    If I can bleach out the silver color filter before developing, the rest is just as developing a b&w film, resulting in a negative film.
     
  4. holmburgers

    holmburgers Member

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    Hi Tronds,

    My mistake, I thought you were already developing it as a positive.

    But why do you need to bleach before developing? The CLS, if I'm not mistaken (which is of course possible), should not become developable. I don't know if it has any sensitivity, and if it did, it would be so much slower than the primary emulsion that it wouldn't be affected by developing agents.

    So if that's the case, just like in C-41 processing, you could do the bleach after development.

    Am I off base?
     
  5. Tronds

    Tronds Member

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    CLS? What? I don't understand.

    Developing with b&w develper and bleaching will remove ALL developed silver, including the developed image. That's not a good idea :smile:
    It can be re-exposed with white light and developed as a positive image, but that is not what I want.

    The collodial silver color filter IS silver before developing, so it can be bleached before developing, but what about the latent image? Will that be present after bleaching? Remember that this bleach doesn't bleach undeveloped parts of the emulsion.

    I guess I have to shoot a film and try this to make sure if it works or not.
    If it works, I have a method for using old ektachrome films, and also a way to use old kodachrome films.
    Just add some alkali and dishwashing detergent to a bath between bleach and developer to remove the rem-jet layer.
     
  6. holmburgers

    holmburgers Member

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    Colloidal silver = CLS (Carey Lea Silver) = yellow filter layer.

    Ok, ok, I think I get it now. Absolutely you're right... this bleach (permanganate/dichromate) will destroy a developed image (duh, what was I thinking...), and by that same logic it might rid you of the colloidal silver.

    In that case, it sounds like it might work.

    As for the latent image, you'll have to test it, which it sounds like you plan to do. The "printing out" emulsions of old however required only exposure to create metallic silver (or is that not entirely accurate?), and so it makes you wonder if your latent image will be safe.

    I wish I could be a bit more concrete in my offerings here, but it's an interesting question and I wanted to take a stab at it. Surely there are others who will be able to give better evidence, but they seem to be lurking in the shadows tonight...
     
  7. analog what is that?

    analog what is that? Member

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    Yeah I'm intereseted in this too, a few bricks of KC might be coming my way.....
     
  8. Photo Engineer

    Photo Engineer Subscriber

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    The Permanganate or Dichromeate bleaches used in reversal B&W processing will bleach out the latent image and dissolve it!

    PE
     
  9. Tronds

    Tronds Member

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    Well, that was exactly what I was afraid of.
    This is a dead end then.

    But I have to test this anyway.
    To make a simple and cheap test, I am goung to ask someone with an interest in aquariums to get a small amount of permanganate (used to kill parasites on fish) and mix up a small amount and dip an exposed leader in it for some minutes and develop it afterwards. I have to do that in the dark to avoid re-exposing it during development. If it don't get black, you are right about this, which I suppose you are, but if it gets black, there is still hope.

    Do you have any other trick up your sleeve to get rid of the collodial silver without making a positive, or destroying the images.

    Doing it the hard way would be as this:
    Bleach in darkness,
    clearing bath,
    wash,
    drying,
    respooling the film, still in darkness.

    Exposing the film as normal and devlop as a b&w film.
     
  10. analog what is that?

    analog what is that? Member

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    You are not afrait of work, my friend.............
     
  11. Tronds

    Tronds Member

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    It has to be tested. The proof is in the pudding...
     
  12. Tronds

    Tronds Member

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    Made a quick test with ferricyanide.
    Farmers reducer solutuion A 5ml in 150ml water.
    I took a film-strip that was exposed to daylight and loaded the tank.
    Poured in the reducer and let it sit for 5 minutes.
    Poured out the reducer and filled water and poured it out again.
    Repeated 10 times.
    Poured in developer and developed for 5 minutes.
    stop, fix and rinse as usual.

    The result is a filmstrip with about half the width blank and the other black.

    Potassium ferricyanide does destroy the latent image.
    I suppose that PE is right and that potassium permanganate will do the same. :-(
    It still has to be tested, but I dont expect the result I want.

    Well, I have to make positives from the film then.
     
  13. keithwms

    keithwms Member

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    You're doing what??? To some perfectly innocent slide film???!

    Well, I hope you will show the results.
     
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  15. Tronds

    Tronds Member

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    E-6 processing is costly and I have to send the films away to get them processed in the E-6 process.
    E-6 film is cheaply available. Cheaper than B&W film.

    Shooting them as B&W and making b&w slides is something I can handle in my home.
    The problem with developing them as b&w negatives is that dense color filter made of collodial silver. If I can get rid of that, it's great, but if that isn't possible, I have to develop, bleach, clear, re-expose end develop again to get a positive.
    The bleach step will remove the color mask, but it also removes the image. The result after bleaching is the undeveloped silver still present in the film.
    Exposing that and developing it gives a positive image.
    Not suitable for the darkroom, but perfectly scannable.
     
  16. keithwms

    keithwms Member

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    What about the scala / dr5 process....

    May the six gods whose names all start with E have mercy on your soul...
     
  17. analog what is that?

    analog what is that? Member

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    Link to that process Keith?
    Make a careful note a link to something only avauilable to the lower 48 states, or some of the southern states is a non-starter, it has to be sendable and trransferable across the entire planet!
     
  18. jnanian

    jnanian Advertiser Advertiser

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    hi tronds

    i process e6 film sometimes in caffenol c with a small bit of paper developer added in.
    the developer is sort of low contrast, and slow working and my e6 doesn't come out too dense.
    i have recently heard of people bleaching out the dye layer ( ? ) using soda ash
    ( sorry i don't know the dilution ) i have also heard of people using dilute household bleach
    diluted down another 1:10 ...
    i have never used these methods myself, but it seems others have and it worked out ...

    good luck !
    john
     
  19. Tronds

    Tronds Member

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    Household bleach destroys the emulsjon. I have tried that and it doesn't work. It takes on unevenly and dissolves the emulson.
    Soda ash doesn't bleach silver. Besides that it is often used as alkali in developers.

    Developing the film is no problem, but the film is way to dense to print and too dense to scan with optimum results.

    Farmers reduser removes the color filter, but it also removes part of the image. :-(
     
  20. Tronds

    Tronds Member

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    It is better to use the film for b&w than just throwing it in the bin.
     
  21. jnanian

    jnanian Advertiser Advertiser

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  22. Tronds

    Tronds Member

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    Scala / dr5 makes b&w slides from b&w films.
    This is not what I want. What I want is to be able to use the large amount of free E-6 slide film that I have.
    E-6 processing is expensive. It requires the film to be sent away. Cost about $25 including shipping.

    b&w films makes great negatives for printing or scanning with standards development processes.

    Besides that the films have to be sent out if the country to be processed.
    Shipping to USA: US$44.-
    Processing: US$14.75
    Shippping back to Norway US$20.-

    Cost for one film processed: US$78.75.

    Not exactly cheap!

    So, what choice do I have then?
    Process the films as b&w and get rid of the coloir filters in some way og just throw them into the bin.
    Making slides is NOT my goal. In fact, this is not wanted. Negatives is best since they can be printed in the darkroom.

    Trond
     
  23. Photo Engineer

    Photo Engineer Subscriber

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    Some films use a yellow dye which can be removed by other types of bleaches. OTOMH, IDK if Kodachrome still used CLS or had converted to a dye.

    Then again, Kodak published a formula that purported to bleach the CLS layer in color films when they were processed in B&W. I don't have that formula but it was on an E6 page on the EK web site.

    PE
     
  24. Tronds

    Tronds Member

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    I have read that.
    Citric acid in kodak rapid fixer.

    Tried that and it took some of the color filters out, but the CLS layer was still there.
    I didn't use Kodak rapid fixer, but I don't know how important it is to use one rapid fixer instead of another rapid fixer.

    Farmers reducer removes the CLS layer, but it also takes a bit out of the image.

    I might end up with a b&w reversal process. It seems that this is the only way to get rid of the CLS layer and still keep an image on the film.
     
  25. Photo Engineer

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    It is intended for use with reversal color films processed as B&W negatives IIRC. And the fixer may well be important in this case.

    PE
     
  26. Bob-D659

    Bob-D659 Member

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