provia 100f with tetenal e6 3 bath questions

Discussion in 'Color: Film, Paper, and Chemistry' started by danzyc, Sep 10, 2009.

  1. danzyc

    danzyc Member

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    hello friend i d like to process in the same bath (for a work) kodak 100 vs and fuji provia 100f do you know if the provia 100 have different first developer time?

    thanks
     
  2. Rudeofus

    Rudeofus Subscriber

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    No, it's the same for both films. That's the beauty of C41/E6, that the development process is standardized. Should you be unhappy with the color results, the Tetenal instructions tell you what to do to correct color casts or exposure deviations.
     
  3. David A. Goldfarb

    David A. Goldfarb Moderator Staff Member Moderator

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    Actually, the recommended times for Fuji in Tetenal 3-bath are slightly longer than for Kodak films. Check the Tetenal instructions. My first developer times for Provia 100F with Tetenal 3-bath E-6 are--

    First batch:

    -1--5:15
    N--7:30
    +1--10:00
    +2--13:30

    Second batch:

    -1--5:30
    N--7:45
    +1--10:15
    +2--second batch not recommended

    Tetenal gives times for three batches through the first developer. I don't recommend that for Fuji films, but I've done that with Ektachrome, and it's been okay.

    Tetenal also gives times for push processing up to four stops, but I don't recommend pushing more than two stops in the three-bath kit.
     
  4. Rudeofus

    Rudeofus Subscriber

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    Tetenal E6

    I hold the instructions for the Tetenal E6 1 liter 3 bath kit in my hands as I write this. These instructions came with translations in many languages including English, so I'd be surprized to hear that (lawyer jokes aside) different instruction manuals would be printed for the US market.

    The only mentioning of differences between film brands is when adjusting for color casts and the generic "First developer times must be adapted individually to suit the combination of developer machine, film make, ..." phrase. Pushing and pulling is described from -3 to +2 stops.

    Are there possibly different instructions for the 5l kit?
     
  5. David A. Goldfarb

    David A. Goldfarb Moderator Staff Member Moderator

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    Interesting. Maybe they've changed the formulation or the instructions or the formulation since I last looked at them. I usually go by the times in my own notes. I looked to see if it was still possible to download a PDF of the instructions from the Tetenal website and couldn't find it, but these instructions look like what I can recall--

    http://www.davidrichert.com/3_step_e-6.htm
     
  6. Rudeofus

    Rudeofus Subscriber

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    Interesting link, but it strongly deviates from what's written in my instruction booklet in many aspects:
    • The link recommends only three runs of film, my booklet lists processing times for up to four runs (I did five spread over a week and got decent results)
    • The link recommends 4 minutes of color developer time, which is way shorter than what my booklet recommends
    • The link's mixing instructions always mention Part1&2, a current Tetenal E6 kit uses different quantities of Part 1 and 2 for some bathes.
    • The link recommends only half a minute of stabilizer bath, my booklet states 1 whole minute.
    • The link recommends much shorter wash times
    • The link talks about a 1/2 liter set, which to my best knowledge isn't sold any more
    • The link only lists push/pull between -1 to +2, my booklet lists procedures between -3 and +2 stops

    Altogether this smells like Tetenal has changed their formulation and Mr. Richert didn't update his web page to reflect this. The changes may not make a big difference, but the difference in CD time would worry me.
     
  7. Kevin Caulfield

    Kevin Caulfield Subscriber

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    I also just checked my Tetenal E6 instructions, and as Rudeofus mentioned the only differences indicated between film brands are for correcting colour deviations.
     
  8. Raphael

    Raphael Subscriber

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    Hi everyone,

    It'd very surprising to me, because, the one and only version of Tetenal E6 booklet I ever seen was the one translated in the link given by David. I use with very satisfiying result (to me), the following times for First Developer :
    - 7:30 for Fuji Film (*)
    - 6:30 for others brands (Kodak, Agfa)

    (*), I use this for the "Pro" range of inversible film (Provia, Velvia), and use the standard 6:30 time for Fuji Sensia film ! I already heard of this difference somewhere on the web, and wasn't believed it, until I "tested" it myself, the hard way. I got two roll of Sensia 200, processed in the FD for 7:30, with overblown highlights, and a ugly greenish cast. Not totally ruined, but ugly.
    I think Astia film should be processed with reduced FD time, too, I heard somewhere it's the same emulsion as Sensia.

    Is somebody here do the same statement ?

    @danzyc : In all case I prudently advise to NOT mix two different brands of film in the same processing batch. I can't recall where I read it, but in this case, I have not tried it myself :smile:

    Regards,

    Raphael

    P.S : I use a Jobo ATL-1 processor.
     
  9. Rudeofus

    Rudeofus Subscriber

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    That's interesting, because the little booklet in many languages came with every pack of Tetenal E6 developer I bought ... :confused: Now that I looked at it: the package does look different in the USA than the EU version. Very confused now. The Mfr# are also somewhat different.

    Just curious: Do you get these little packs our do you buy the huge bottles where Tetenal may assume that you knew the process anyway?

    For anyone with more detailed questions I recommend contacting Tetenal directly. In my complete noob phase I contacted them and got very helpfull advice. They were quite happy to hear about someone entering this field.

    Either they provide you with current instructions or there will be a way to get a scanned copy into your hands :wink:

    To be honest, I couldn't tell the difference in results between 6:30 and 7:30 of FD time reliably because the difference is 1/2 stop or less, which is below the accuracy of most of my light meterings. The difference, if it exists, may stem from inaccurate statements of film ISO number by the manufacturers rather than different chemical properties. People reportedly rate and shoot 400 ISO film at anything between 320 and 640 from what I read.
    I may not be the most experienced E6 user here, but I can confirm that I achieved acceptable results putting E100VS and Provia 400X into the same tank.

    So to all those who don't shoot 5 test rolls of refridgerated slide film from one batch lot to evaluate the exact color properties and ISO performance of that very lot: E6 is E6 is E6. That's the whole idea of E6 and I doubt that any pro lab bothers separating the different E6 film brands. Please don't make the E6 process sound like black magic that no mortal could ever figure out.
     
  10. David A. Goldfarb

    David A. Goldfarb Moderator Staff Member Moderator

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    I don't know if they are the same emulsion, but my Astia first developer times are shorter than my Provia times and longer than my Kodak/Agfa times.
     
  11. Raphael

    Raphael Subscriber

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    Mine, are the "euro" version. I use the 5L packs (maybe this is the 4 of 5th I bought), and in the begining, used 1L, and 0,5L kit (now discontinued). I wasn't aware that another type of Tetenal E6 kit exists (the one you link at b&h) !

    I think the overdevelopment phenomenon for Sensia/Astia, in my case, seems to be founded. I thought initially that my First Developper went suddenly bad, but I never experienced such a thing before (nor after, until now !), and I try to keep strictly the same protocol for process and conservation (Separate beakers for mixing, Protectan, etc...).

    I remember that when I go reading the E6 troubleshooting manual, where I checked the symptoms (Hightlights burned, yellow/green cast) I found that the origin maybe "FD time too long". I know maybe there is many sources of problem (exposure, Iso variation, bad film, film conservation,...), especially with transparencies, but since I am using 6:30 for the FD, my Sensia slides are rather fine.

    I have to make some scans of Sensia slides, either processed 7:30 and 6:30, and can posts it here, if people are interested.

    Interesting to know it !
    I talking here from what I read here and there, not my experience. For example, I found this thread :
    http://www.apug.org/forums/archive/index.php/t-6371.html
    We can see experiences in this matter seem to be varying among users.
    I am pretty sure I read this somewhere else, I wonder if it is in one of Tetenal docs, I am still searching.

    You're totally right. But I think the Tetenal 3-baths is a very condensed form of the standard E6 process, and maybe it has its own idiosyncrasy.

    The rotating process in small tank, has peculiarities too, and maybe not very used by the pro-labs, whom rather uses "transfer" processing machine, IMHO, but maybe I am wrong here.

    Interesting discussion, btw :smile:

    Best regards,

    Raphael
     
  12. Raphael

    Raphael Subscriber

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    Hi David,

    So, what times are you using for Kodak/agfa films ?

    BTW, I never got a really good results with Tetenal 3-bath and Agfa Precisa CT films (135), always got a slight magenta cast.

    regards,

    Raphael
     
  13. jinx

    jinx Member

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  15. Rudeofus

    Rudeofus Subscriber

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    Mine are the "euro" version, too. Hello, fellow film using EU citizen :smile: I, too was surprized to see the different US version and thought it might be an explanation for why so many folks have no instruction manuals.

    Allow me to refer to my manual again: FD & CD times start with 6 minutes and progress to 8 minuted as the bath gets reused. I'm quite surprized why people would do the first run @7:30 FD time unless they wanted to push by 1 stop. Needless to say that color casts may be the results.

    It has happened many times in my engineering life that I (knowingly or unknowingly) ignored important parts of the manual and created convoluted ways to work around the resulting problems. Since color film development allows no debugging between steps, it's very hard to find out the sources of color casts or other problems.
    The instruction manual states clearly how to deal with certain color casts. If such steps are necessary, obviously one would avoid mixing film brands, since the recommended changes to the bath are different for different film brands.

    Since film processing is, compared to digital, a very old trade, there is a lot of information out there, which may or may not apply to a modern setup. Films come and go, so do developer kits, and things which were critical 20 years ago may not be an issue today.

    If you have a studio with very controlled lighting and a highly repeatable color development process, there may be a point in dealing with slight color casts. In this case you should invest the time to dial in your process to yield the exact results you need. If you (like I do) shoot mostly outdoors, switch film brand and speed all the time and process the rolls in Jobo 1520 tanks with reused developer, film brand dependent FD times should not be your main concern. I get decent results, btw.
     
  16. Raphael

    Raphael Subscriber

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    Maybe because many people, using Jobo like me, refers to the Jobo Documentation for rotary processing E6, where Jobo counsels a FD time longer than the actual Tetenal booklet. These are here and here

    For Fuji, Jobo recommend to use a FD time 16% longer, so 6:30+16% ~ 7:30.
    I know this is not very courageous from me :smile:, but I tend to obey the Jobo people from the analog years, which, IMHO, knows the best about rotary processing.

    As a result, for me, the 4x5 Provia 100F transparencies I got, show no color cast, or at least no cast when eyeballing it on a light table.

    I'm in this case too, and I suspect, since 2 or 3 years I do E6 processing, that times and temperature controls are not so crucial, and the E6 process if much more fail tolerant that one could thinks. If I'll take the time, for the sake of curiosity, I will realise several tests on 4x5 sheet transparencies, and process it with different FD time, to see if it really matter.

    Regards,

    Raphael
     
  17. Rudeofus

    Rudeofus Subscriber

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    I just looked at the Jobo instructions. The 5l bath instruction pdf closely resembles my 1l bath instructions. Note, that this document does not even mention the word Fuji or Kodak in the relevant section. Since the pdf was created in the year 2000 (bonus points to all those who discover the y2k bug in the pdf :tongue:) and still matches my current instruction booklet, I assume that the deviating instructions are very old and refer to an earlier version of the Tetenal kit. Shame on Jobo for not putting a date on their online manuals :mad:.

    One thing the 5l bath instructions lack are a description how to increase FD, CD and BX times as the bath is reused. I guess Tetenal expects home processors to buy their 1l kit.
    I started with C41 2 years ago, never got decent results, then switched to E6 and immediately had success. I do use a color thermometer and carefully mix the developer solutions to spec, and process my film in Jobo hand drums. I scan in my slides with color correction turned off and never had to correct color casts unless the ambient light didn't match daylight. I am stunned to constantly read about magenta casts and what not from people who have much more experience and have a much more sophisticated setup.

    I should ask the Tetenal folks whether it would be ok with them if I posted a transcript of their 1 l bath manual, since this seems to contain the most accurate and current description of how to process E6 with their bath.
     
  18. danzyc

    danzyc Member

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    thank for all! friends it is possibile to skip the bleach on e6???

    thanks
     
  19. Rudeofus

    Rudeofus Subscriber

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    I have no first hand experience, but found this link. I think it covers all aspects of this.
     
  20. hrst

    hrst Member

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    No, because the bleach has to remove both negative and positive silver image. If you skip bleaching, you have overlapping positive and negative silver image -- opaque film.
     
  21. Photo Engineer

    Photo Engineer Subscriber

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    Well, I have to add that the 3 bath kit must include a stabilzer with current E6 films if you are to avoid serious image stability problems.

    PE
     
  22. Rudeofus

    Rudeofus Subscriber

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    It does, it's just not counted in Tetenal's bath count. For all practical purposes, the 3 bath kit has 4 bathes. Their technical support said the stabilizer is important but doesn't develop the film, hence the 3 bath designation.
     
  23. Photo Engineer

    Photo Engineer Subscriber

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    Well, to be technical, the bleach-fix does not "develop the film" either but is included in the count. :smile:

    PE
     
  24. Tom Kershaw

    Tom Kershaw Subscriber

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    Why not use the full 6(7 including stabilizer) bath Kodak E6 kit?

    Tom
     
  25. Rudeofus

    Rudeofus Subscriber

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    • I can't find this 6 bath kit here in central europe
    • Why mess around with 7 bathes if 4 do the job very well?

    @PE: Yes, but one could argue that BX does a lot more to the appearance of the slide than STAB does, at least in the short run.
     
  26. Raphael

    Raphael Subscriber

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    Hello All,
    Sorry if I seem to beat a dead horse, here, but I checked, to be sure, the last Tetenal instruction booklet I got with my last 5L kit (bought in June). And I made a mistake, this is not the one translated by David Richert. This last page seems in fact coming from a manual for E6 3 baths from the Jobo site.

    In the booklet, we can see :
    FD time : 6:15 (15s increment if reused)
    CD time : 6:00
    BX time : 6:00

    But under the table, they add something likes "For rotary processing machine, use prewarm at 39°C and FD time of 7 minutes :confused: And as Rudeofus says : there is no mention of extra time for Fuji films.

    So, again we fall in : The FD time don't seems to be so important !!!

    Regards,

    Raphael