push ADOX 100 to 400 or above?

Discussion in 'B&W: Film, Paper, Chemistry' started by maarten m, Dec 10, 2010.

  1. maarten m

    maarten m Member

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    hello,

    does anyone here know what i can expect if i push ADOX CHS 100 to 400 or even higher (800, 1600)?
    i plan on developing in ADONAL (RODINAL), but still have to work out the time ...

    regards,
    maarten.
     
  2. AmsterdamMartin

    AmsterdamMartin Member

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    Het is daar helemaal niet voor gemaakt, die ouderwetse film. En Rodinal uit 1890 ook niet.
    Zal wel erg kunstenaars-achtig worden, met ENORME korrel. Het contrast zal extreem hoog zijn.
    Ik schat dat je een soort Louis Jacques-Mande Daguerre in 1838 krijgt.
    Maar wellicht krijg je er iets moois mee in bepaalde situaties, en zeker niemand anders zal zulke foto's maken.
    Oh en de tijd ? begin maar met een uur of zo, stand development. En werk dan door met verdubbelingen.
     
  3. 2F/2F

    2F/2F Member

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    It'll work like any other underexposure/overdevelopment. It adds contrast, and turns what would normally be low-toned texture and detail into solid black. The more you underexpose it (i.e. the higher you rate it), the more extreme these effects will be. You will also get a high amount of graininess, but the larger the format, the less grain you will see at a given print size. It will be quite grainy in 35mm. The film is flat (meaning low in contrast) as it is, so it will survive the push quite well.

    Why do you want to do it? Are you after a contrasty and grainy look?
     
  4. hobbes

    hobbes Member

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    Hi Maarten, Generally speaking pushing iso100 materials over iso200+ is bad idea. A workaround can be a developer that raises speed of the film, like Diafine.
     
  5. piu58

    piu58 Member

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    Why do you want to push that film? I recommend to use a faster one. The overall result will be much better.
    Rodinal ist not a good idea for pushing because it tends to block the highlights. I recommend a phenidone based solvent devoloper if you need more speed from a film. You can used undiluted Microphen for that.
     
  6. maarten m

    maarten m Member

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    hey,

    well, i was just thinking if it would work, that's all.
    i found data about developing for 24min in Rodinal 1+50 if pushed to 400.
    so i guess someone has been doing it before :D

    maarten.
     
  7. Jeff Kubach

    Jeff Kubach Member

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    I wouldn't push 100 past 400. Maybe 400 past 1600. That is about it.

    Jeff
     
  8. 2F/2F

    2F/2F Member

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    "Why do you want to push that film? I recommend to use a faster one. The overall result will be much better.
    Rodinal ist not a good idea for pushing because it tends to block the highlights. I recommend a phenidone based solvent devoloper if you need more speed from a film. You can used undiluted Microphen for that. "

    The "better" result is not the sharper or more grain-free result, but the one that is closest to what is envisioned. Criteria must be named in order to make the word "better" really mean anything. Why not just explain what the push in Rodinal will do without passing judgment on whether or not this is "better" than something else?
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 11, 2010
  9. piu58

    piu58 Member

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    > Why not just explain what the push in Rodinal will do ...
    With Rodinal you probably not get the box speed. It may be you get real 200 or 250 ASA from a 400 film. If you expose it like 1600 that is underexposing the film nearly 3 stops.

    If you underexpose the film more than one stop the shadows get much too less light. No developer in the world will get them back: Your shadows (and not only the deepest) will be empty.

    The mid tones get the light what normally the shadows get - 3 stops too less. To raise them in a printable are you have to overdevelop the film dramatically. It may be that you need twice the time. Then you get the mid tones in an acceptable range, but they are very contrasty. But that may you want to.

    If you develop a film double time all highlights come to totally black in the negative or in the near of it. To prevent this you could use a developer which solves back silver. But Rodinal does not work in that way. The highlights will be blocked and without structure in the positive.

    If you over-develop a film with Rodinal it gets grainy.

    So let us summarize what you get:
    - You lose the shadows, they are empty
    - You lose the highlights, they are blocked
    - The mid tones are harsh
    - The film is grainy.

    If you'd use a film with a higher speed you'd get
    - Open shadows
    - Graduated highlights
    - Fine graduated (not too contrasty) mid tones
    - But grain

    If you'd use the 400 film but a sulphite-rich Phenidone based developer you'd get
    - Empty shadows, but slightly better than in Rodinal. Phenidone gets half a stop more speed.
    - Highlights with some structures in it. Not optimal but better than with Rodinal.
    - Mid tones less contrasty in comparison to Rodinal.
    - Lesser grainy results
     
  10. maarten m

    maarten m Member

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    you mean even HP5+ at 400 will be 1-stop underexposed with rodinal and would need a 1-stop overcompensation in developing?

    all films, if developed in rodinal, will come out more grainy but if used at box-speed, detail in shadows and highlights?
    and if pushed: loss of detail in both highlights ànd shadows, but with "okay" midtones?

    maarten.
     
  11. hobbes

    hobbes Member

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    Basically ANYTHING will work ..nobody will prevent you from pouring even green tea to a tank with x-ray film, who cares. Right after all? :D The real question u gotta answer yourself is what are you looking for - acutance? overall sharpness? excellent tonality? no grain? .. Coming from such standpoint pushing iso100 is bad idea and using Rodinal for pushing is twice as bad. However a crappy image with blocked highlights, black holes in shades and grain big like corn can be an artistic vision, well thought of course. :smile:

    The problem I have with various dev tables is that I can't see results of particular recipe. :smile:
     
  12. Gerald C Koch

    Gerald C Koch Member

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    There are some times when pushing is required. A poor image is always better than no image. When the photographer cannot control the lighting or use a flash then pushing is justified. I have seen some very dramatic photos taking of people on stage.

    However, when you know you will have to push you first start with a fast film not the medium speed film you suggest. Some films push better than others. A speed increasing developer (defimitly NOT Rodinal) will give you a modest speed increase of 1/3 to 2/3 stops. Using the manufacturers built in safety factor you can get perhaps an extra stop. That''s it!, there is no magic. Past this the images will suffer; no shadow detail, higher than normal contrast and grain, harsh tonality, loss of latitude.
     
  13. piu58

    piu58 Member

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    You cannot compensate underexposing by overdeveloping. The quality of a right exposed and right developed film is unbeatable.
    If you try to comensate an underexposure, you get problems in the shadows and may be in the highligts, and you get more grain.
    The midtones will affected in pronounced way if you try to compensate 2 stops or more. You could try to compensate this with softer paper. But for the thin shadows you need harder paper....
     
  14. ic-racer

    ic-racer Member

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    Just as with "unintentional" underexposure, you will get negatives that are mostly clear, except for the highlights. Essentially, a photograph of just the highlights in a scene.
     
  15. 37th Exposure

    37th Exposure Member

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    I've not tried it myself but I've read that some have pushed two or three stops successfully with Rodinal stand development. You might want to research that if Rodinal is your brew.