Push or pull?

Discussion in 'B&W: Film, Paper, Chemistry' started by TareqPhoto, May 21, 2012.

  1. TareqPhoto

    TareqPhoto Subscriber

    Messages:
    969
    Joined:
    Nov 19, 2009
    Location:
    Ajman - U.A.
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
    Well, sorry if this question has been asked gazillion times before, but i am very lazy to search, so i will ask here.

    Which is you think better to go with, pushing a slow or medium film to high speed iso or pulling so high speed to lower/medium speed? For example pushing 400ASA to 1000 or pulling 3200 down to 1000 [200 to 800 or 800 to 100]
     
    Last edited by a moderator: May 21, 2012
  2. rthomas

    rthomas Member

    Messages:
    1,177
    Joined:
    Jan 2, 2009
    Shooter:
    35mm
    I personally love the look of Tri-X or HP-5+ (ISO 400) pushed to EI 1000-1600, especially with Acufine developer. If I need very fast film this is what I usually do since the 3200-speed films are more expensive (and anyway my favorite, Fuji Neopan 1600, is no longer available).

    Sometimes I rate 400-speed films at 200 and develop normally (no pull), especially when using the view camera (it's not something I arrived at scientifically, it's just insurance against miscalculating the bellows factor). But if I want a slower speed film, I just get something off the shelf like FP-4+ (ISO 125).
     
  3. Paul Howell

    Paul Howell Member

    Messages:
    2,442
    Joined:
    Dec 23, 2004
    Location:
    Phoeinx Ariz
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
    Depends on what kind of shadow details you want. Pushing Tx or HP5 gives that old school look, pulling (not really pulling as Tmax 3200 can be rated from 400 to 1600,3200 is considered a push) Tmax 3200 to 800 will provide much better shadow detail. If you push meter for the highlights and let the shadows fall where they may. I like Tmax 3200 rated at 1600 and developed in DDX. I also shoot Forma 400 at 800 and push in HC 110 or Studional (sp?).
     
  4. TareqPhoto

    TareqPhoto Subscriber

    Messages:
    969
    Joined:
    Nov 19, 2009
    Location:
    Ajman - U.A.
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
    I see, each to his own!!!

    Well, i hope to read where i can follow push/pull film so i don't screw up things, and not sure yet to what i want to push or pull the film, until now most of my shots are between 50-400, sometimes closer to 800, but i want to see how can i push a film say Tri-X400 to 800 or even TMAX400 to 800, Also would like to know how to shoot Delta 3200 for 1000-1600 speed, i avoid to shoot indoor with low light because i don't want to go above 800 or 1000, with color it is so easy, i did shoot Portra 800 and got nice results, i don't process color films at all.
     
  5. wiltw

    wiltw Subscriber

    Messages:
    1,071
    Joined:
    Oct 4, 2008
    Location:
    SF Bay area
    Shooter:
    Medium Format
    Pushing increases contrast while pulling decreases contrast of the negative...so it depends upon what you need to accomplish, and how you also plan to print (selection of contrast grade).
    Sometimes you push because you need to increase film sensitivity due to low light. I have had to do that, but I never found a need to pull process for contrast control.
     
  6. Thomas Bertilsson

    Thomas Bertilsson Subscriber

    Messages:
    14,949
    Joined:
    Jan 21, 2003
    Location:
    Minnesota
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
    In low contrast lighting - exposing ISO 100 film at 200 isn't going to lose any shadow details - ISO 100 @ 200 best choice.

    In high contrast lighting - exposing ISO 400 film at 200 will gain you shadow detail that you would have lost shooting at 400. ISO 400 @ 200 best choice.

    I normal lighting - You could lose some shadow detail with ISO 100 film used at 200. ISO 400 film used at 200 is your best choice here.

    It ALL depends on the lighting how you expose and process you film.
     
  7. Mainecoonmaniac

    Mainecoonmaniac Subscriber

    Messages:
    3,784
    Joined:
    Dec 10, 2009
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
    Again, it depends on what look you want. Pushing usually doen't really increase the ASA of the film, but just compensates under exposed midtones and highlights. Usually you lose shadow detail too. If you want a grainy look with black empty shadows, pushing can give you that look.

    If you pull, you'll get better shadow detail, but you can pull too far and your negs might give grayish prints.

    These aren't necessarily bad things, but you can use it in your repertoire of looks. It's a creative tool.
     
  8. Aron

    Aron Subscriber

    Messages:
    260
    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2009
    Location:
    Hungary
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
    FWIW Delta 3200 rated at 800 looks really neat in Rodinal 1+25.

    The best way to understand what a given film-developer combination will give you at a given EI is to test it yourself and print the results, if a darkroom is available to you. You will find development times for different EIs in most developer/film datasheets. I could describe you my favourite film and developer in glowing terms, yet you might easily find it's not your cup of tea.
     
  9. Steve Smith

    Steve Smith Subscriber

    Messages:
    8,968
    Joined:
    May 3, 2006
    Location:
    Ryde, Isle o
    Shooter:
    Medium Format
    Delta 3200 is an ISO 1000 film so EI 800 is not much of a pull.

    I have only used Delta 3200 once and that was also at EI 800 (developed in Microphen though) and I also liked the results.


    Steve.
     
  10. TareqPhoto

    TareqPhoto Subscriber

    Messages:
    969
    Joined:
    Nov 19, 2009
    Location:
    Ajman - U.A.
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
    Well, it is all dependable on the look i want so i have to do some tests to come out with the results.

    In fact, the only films i was looking to do push and pull with are specific even i can do with all films, in fact i just shoot the film at box speed after giving my light meter and dig.... camera some readings and do shots, i did print once one frame from a roll i liked, no push or pull, the print came out amazing and the details were incredible [TMAX400], so in most cases if i feel myself i have to compensate the exposure on film i will learn when i should push and pull due to the lighting is there, mostly on those low light or so high contrast lighting i really don't care about the look, all what i look for is to get the shot, better have shots with some details than damaging details in shadows and highlights, God gifted us with film latitude.

    So what are good developers are most popular for those push/pull process? For now i only know about the Diafine, i heard HC-110 from you, what else?
     
  11. Aron

    Aron Subscriber

    Messages:
    260
    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2009
    Location:
    Hungary
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
    Sure, but Ilford arrived at the ISO of 1000 using ID-11 and not Rodinal. I simply gave this suggestion, because the OP was interested in a way to arrive at EI 800. HP5 is also great at 800 in Microphen 1+1, but these days I tend to prefer the former.
     
  12. martinez

    martinez Member

    Messages:
    5
    Joined:
    Aug 25, 2006
    Location:
    North of Chi
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
    I always thought pushing/pulling depended on what sort of range you wanted to acheive. I don't remember where I read it (maybe Adams?), but the author characterized pushing and pulling as expansion and compression.
     
  13. TareqPhoto

    TareqPhoto Subscriber

    Messages:
    969
    Joined:
    Nov 19, 2009
    Location:
    Ajman - U.A.
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
    OK, i am gonna give that a test sooner or later, i hope this week, i will choose one film but i have to see which developer i have will use for this purpose.
    Now how i should do it, using 400ASA film and exposed it for 800, then develop as it is 400 or 800? I think there are EI datasheet for each film or each developer i can follow, is this the way to do it?

    Checking up my films, i chose 4 films to vote for which one to use for push procoess: TMAX400, Tri-X400, HP5 and Delta400.
     
  14. Thomas Bertilsson

    Thomas Bertilsson Subscriber

    Messages:
    14,949
    Joined:
    Jan 21, 2003
    Location:
    Minnesota
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
    Exactly.

    Low contrast - you expand the contrast by either just developing longer, or a combination of less exposure and longer developing time.

    High contrast - you contract the contrast range by over-exposing (to capture shadows), and less developing time, possibly with longer agitation intervals.

    That is the way to achieve normal contrast from all kinds of lighting conditions, and is one use of expansion and contraction.

    -----------------------------

    The other use is that you wish to achieve something different than normal negatives. You could want more contrast even from a normally lit scene, in which case you could either develop more, or combine lower exposure with more developing time, which stretches the contrast range out far enough that you exceed the limits of your printing paper/developer combination, for some pure paper white highlights, and some pure black low values - both without detail. In some instances this could be desirable and preferred to a normal contrast negative.

    Now we've moved away from the realm of technically correct, and into an area of visual preference. Both are equally valid in my opinion, and a question of what we like or don't like. It's so important to wander into the unknown sometimes, and try to push our materials to the limit and beyond, so that we can find out for ourselves what we like and don't.

    Have fun!
     
  15. cliveh

    cliveh Subscriber

    Messages:
    4,537
    Joined:
    Oct 9, 2010
    Shooter:
    35mm RF
    Neither.
     
  16. jnanian

    jnanian Advertiser

    Messages:
    19,316
    Joined:
    Jun 21, 2003
    Location:
    local
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
    if you expose tmy or trix at 800 chances are you won't even notice the difference.
    kodak used to suggest processing them for the same time ...
    ( if you search ' i exposed my film at 800 by mistake, instead of 400 ' you will see
    all sorts of responses that say ' process normally don't worry about it ' )

    just shoot a test roll and see what you like ..
     
  17. TareqPhoto

    TareqPhoto Subscriber

    Messages:
    969
    Joined:
    Nov 19, 2009
    Location:
    Ajman - U.A.
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
    OK, because HP5 is one of my favorite films over Tri-X i decided to use it for this test, now how can i compensate or shoot HP5+ for ASA 800 or 1000? Later i will decide which developer i will use.
     
  18. Paul Howell

    Paul Howell Member

    Messages:
    2,442
    Joined:
    Dec 23, 2004
    Location:
    Phoeinx Ariz
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
    Set your meter at 800, shoot the roll. Unless you use a developer like Acufine, once you select a developer add 50% to the base time for each push. So if you are using D76, ID11 at 7.5 add 3.75 for a toatal of 11.25. If you want to push 2 stops to 1600 you add another 50% or 5.6 to the 11.25 for a total of 16.85 or just round up to 17.
     
  19. TareqPhoto

    TareqPhoto Subscriber

    Messages:
    969
    Joined:
    Nov 19, 2009
    Location:
    Ajman - U.A.
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
    I did shoot HP5 for 800, i am not sure if the metering was fine, so later i will decide which developer i will use, Ilfosol 3 is open and ready but i feel it is not so great, i have ID-11 which i feel i want to start this one, Diafine i will keep it for something else even it is one of great for push.

    I am thinking to shoot another film now, Tri-X, but i am planning to push that to 1000 or 1600 instead of 800.
     
  20. Paul Howell

    Paul Howell Member

    Messages:
    2,442
    Joined:
    Dec 23, 2004
    Location:
    Phoeinx Ariz
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
    You might consider Txi X in Dinafine, I also had good results in HC 110.
     
  21. TareqPhoto

    TareqPhoto Subscriber

    Messages:
    969
    Joined:
    Nov 19, 2009
    Location:
    Ajman - U.A.
    Shooter:
    Multi Format
    I think so, so i will store the film until i open Diafine to use, that if i will shoot Tri-X today or very soon.