PYRO-TRIETHANOLAMINE DEV FROM PF ?

Discussion in 'B&W: Film, Paper, Chemistry' started by Guillaume Zuili, Nov 11, 2010.

  1. Guillaume Zuili

    Guillaume Zuili Subscriber

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    Hi,
    Some of you use this dev ?
    How far can you go with replenishment ?
    Any tips ?
    G.
     
  2. juan

    juan Subscriber

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    I used it about 25-years ago. It works - I found it did not provide full film speed, but I didn't know as much then as I do now, so the problem could have been me. I used a gallon with replenishment for well more than a year.
    juan
     
  3. Removed Account2

    Removed Account2 Inactive

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    Any leads on data and early development?=
     
  4. Mike Wilde

    Mike Wilde Member

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    An interseting idea. I use TEA in home mixed colour developers like for RA-4 that are quite alkaline. PMK is great, yes a bit of speed loss, but getting the B bath to dissulve all of the alkali is something I have never conquered. TEA is in a imilar pH range, but is a liquid.
     
  5. Guillaume Zuili

    Guillaume Zuili Subscriber

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    I am getting deep tank to process a lot of film in a minimum of time. And this Pyro formula trickles me.
    If I can replenish and keep going it's great. I'm not worried for the loss of speed.
     
  6. nworth

    nworth Subscriber

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    I used this developer some years ago. It is excellent. True, it does not provide the film speed that D-76 does, but the penalty is quite small. One of the principal characteristics of Pyro-TEA developer is its long life. If kept from air, the concentrate will last for years. (Air reduces its life a lot.) It has very high capacity in working solution. I didn't try replenishment, but making up the volume with concentrate would probably work until the air got to the solution. Note that this is a non-staining pyro developer.

    Pyro-triethanolamine film developer
    Oxalic acid 1.5 g
    Potassium metabisulfite 3.9 g
    Pyrogallol 46 g
    Metol 16 g
    Sodium sulfite 116 g
    Triethanloamine 12 ml
    WTM 4 l
    Dilute 1:1 for use. Develop Tri-X 5-1/2 minutes
     
  7. juan

    juan Subscriber

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    Yes, that's what I did - made up the volume with concentrate. As I recall, this was a formula used in the newspaper business where lots of film needed to be processed rather quickly. IIRC, Paul Farber wrote an article in the early 80s about the developer and convinced PF to make up kits.

    I suspect the large amount of sodium sulfite prevents staining. I don't remember if it tans (hardens) the emulsion or not. I'd give it a try again if I weren't happy with what I'm doing now. Maybe I will anyway.
    juan
     
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    Removed Account2 Inactive

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    I have a question here: what is the point of the TEA, given the small volume, compared to the large volume of water?
    4 Litres of water will surely contain enough dissolved oxygen to oxidize anything in the liquid?

    Also 12ml fluid should be way below what is necessary to dissolve all those chemicals??

    (I'm new to this developer, never gave this a thought before)

    EP
     
  9. Mike Wilde

    Mike Wilde Member

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    One of the keys to DIY developer mixing stock solutions that keep well is to take your distilled or reverse osmisis filtered water, and boil it in a good sized nearly full stainless steel pot with a lid that fits well before you use it to mix the chemistry. I boil gently for at least 10 minutes, and then turn off the heat and let it cool (usually overnight) without removing the lid. I decant into 4L glass jugs, and keep it on hand as the need to mix arises.

    The boiling drives off a reasonable amount of the dissolved gasses.
     
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    OK boiling will drive off gases that start dissipating in the minute the heat is turned off.

    Like for instance one idea to keep oxygen off is using a common siphon (remember them?) fill it with CO2 gas DRY, and use thw valve to fill the bottle(s) with heavier than air CO2 gas, thereby keeping oxygen out of the bottle.

    BUT! CO2 absorbs fairly quickly into solution and will alter pH in solutions that are close to neutral..... so its give and take.

    My question is : what was just 12 ml of TEA supposed to do in a massive solution with 4 liter of water (4000 ml) that sucks up all oxigen it comes in contact with?
     
  11. nworth

    nworth Subscriber

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    Thank you for noticing the error in the formula I posted. The amount of TEA in the formula should be 120 ml, not 12. The Photographers' Formulary formula is slightly different. As posted on their website, it is:

    Metol 17.8 g
    Oxalic Acid 1.7 g
    Potassium Metabisulfite 4.3 g
    Sodium Sulfite 140.0 g
    Pyrogallic Acid (Pyro) 51.2 g
    Triethanolamine 133 ml
    Water to 4 liters
     
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    OK one more question : (I guess it is too late for you to go back and edit the formula, false formulas on the net is annoying, it was dangerous, when I was discussing reloading ammunition and someone posted wrong type of powder...)

    But these two formulas, the3 last and the revised first : will all the ingredients dissolve on the TEA, and will this be like a sticky goo, referred to elsewhere? This should store *forever* in a closed bottle, most likely?
     
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    Revised formula


    Pyro-triethanolamine film developer
    Oxalic acid 1.5 g
    Potassium metabisulfite 3.9 g
    Pyrogallol 46 g
    Metol 16 g
    Sodium sulfite 116 g
    Triethanloamine 120 ml

    Water to make 4000 ml

    Dilute 1:1 for use.
    Develop Tri-X 5-1/2 minutes
     
  14. Alan Johnson

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  15. Mike Wilde

    Mike Wilde Member

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    TEA is a fair bit more liquid when warmed. I set it in a bowl of hot water to pour in the winter here; it 'freezes' solid below 20C I think I recall.
     
  16. CBG

    CBG Member

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    Two questions...
    1. Since the two formulas presented here are in different order, what is the correct sequence for what gets added when?
    2. NWorth's version looks essentially a tiny bit more concentrated than Erik's. The ratios are not constant, but the general drift is that they should act much the same. Are they from a common "ancestor" formula?
     
  17. Relayer

    Relayer Member

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    I think that all formulas in this thread maybe incorrect. I found next formula for this developer here

    Metol 17.8 grams
    Oxalic Acid 1.7 grams
    Potassium Metabisulfite 4.3 grams
    Sodium Sulfite 140.0 grams
    Pyro 51.2 grams
    Triethanolamine 133 ml
    Water to make 2 gallons

    2 gallons = 7.57l, so we can calculate amount for 1l

    Metol 2.4 grams
    Oxalic Acid 0.23 grams
    Potassium Metabisulfite 0.6 grams
    Sodium Sulfite 19 grams
    Pyro 6.8 grams
    Triethanolamine 18 ml
    Water to make 1l

    still don't understand why we need Oxalic Acid in formula. pH buffer?
     
  18. Gerald C Koch

    Gerald C Koch Member

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    You are correct this is NOT a staining developer.

    The TEA raises the pH of the solution to allow the developinjg agents to work. It also acts as a mild silver halide solvent to provide finer grain. Agfa made Studional (Rodinal Special) which was also based on TEA. This was a good developer which never really caught on in the US.
     
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