Pyrocat HD

Discussion in 'B&W: Film, Paper, Chemistry' started by ishutteratthethought, Nov 20, 2008.

  1. ishutteratthethought

    ishutteratthethought Subscriber

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    Hello,
    I am about to embark on a different method of developing film with the use of Pyrocat HD rather than the standard D-76 which I have used for years.
    I have read a plethora of information on this developer and still do not know the basic procedure to develop Delta 100, 4 x 5 sheet film using Pyrocat HD.
    Can someone please layout the BASIC steps for using Pyrocat HD to develop Delta 4 x 5 sheet film?
    I will be using holders and stainless steel tanks.

    I believe I will be mixing 1 -1 -100. I have purchased and have 500 ml of each A & B solution from PFI. I also have standard Kodak fix, not sure if that will work. What would be the fix times?
    I can crash and burn to find out what works best however I am trying to minimize that method if possible.

    Thanks for your time.
    Steve
     
  2. Eric Rose

    Eric Rose Subscriber

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    You could try rating it at asa 64 and souping it for around 10 min's. 68F, 10sec agitation every 60sec's. That will probably get you into the ball park. Tweak from there.
     
  3. Lee L

    Lee L Member

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    You're not clear on which Kodak fix you're using, but you should use an alkaline fix, not an acid fix. Acid fix will clear the stain that you want with Pyrocat HD.

    Sandy King here on APUG is the one to ask for questions about Pyrocat HD. Perhaps he'll chime in.

    Lee
     
  4. Andrew Moxom

    Andrew Moxom Member

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    Steve, I've not used Delta 100 with Pyrocat HD, but have used it extensivley in the past for my TMY and Neopan-400 films. A good source for me were these links:-

    http://unblinkingeye.com/Articles/PCat/pcat.html

    Sandy gives a great intro about pyro devs in general and includes some times and techniques. I would use these as a good grounding for anyone thinking about using staining devs to soup their film. Obviously it is written with using Pyrocat HD in mind. I find most success using pyrocat at 70 Deg for Neopan-400 and 72 deg fro TMY film.... All using 1:1:100 dilution. Roll films are souped using the extreme minimal agitation, and sheet film using a uniroller set up. Bare in mind that Pyrocat HD and MC were mainly degined for rotary devleopment, but can be used just as well with semi stand techniques.

    Also check out this site:- http://www.digitaltruth.com/devchart.html I checked it and they did not have time listed for 120 or sheet film with your combination unfortunately, but it is a good site nonetheless usually.

    http://www.digitaltruth.com/devchart.html
     
  5. ishutteratthethought

    ishutteratthethought Subscriber

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    I planned on using an acid fixer but will try an alkaline fix to be safe.
    Here is Sandy's quote from another site from March 2004 regarding fixing after Pyrocat development

    "I recommend a slightly alkaline fixer, but an acid fixer will not reduce image stain very much, if any, with Pyrocat-HD negatives. It may cut B+F (or general stain) slightly, but that kind of stain is just garbage anyway.
    Sandy King"
     
  6. Lee L

    Lee L Member

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    Thanks. Hadn't seen that.

    Lee
     
  7. ishutteratthethought

    ishutteratthethought Subscriber

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    Andrew i did check these sites as well. I have accumulated a lot of info that I need to sort through. I do have a tube with an electric roller however the tube i have is a monster approximately 24 inches long and about 6 - 7 inches in diameter.
    Sounds like I’ll need to experiment.
    I do not plan on replacing D-76 for good, I just want to have more options to get the image on paper that i have in mind.
    Thanks to all.
    Steve
     
  8. Andrew Moxom

    Andrew Moxom Member

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    Steve, A lot of folks use PF's TF-4 fixer. Personally I use Ilford Hypam..... It works great with pyrocat and even PF commented on that fact that Hypam fixer works well for Pyrocat stained negs. It's a non hardeing fix also as you may know, Pyro staining negs also has the benefit of the emulsion being hardened during development. So no need to have fixer that does it and have to extend the wash as a result.

    Ilford Hypam is available from West Photo for around $19 a gallon... Should last a long time.
     
  9. Lee L

    Lee L Member

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    Next time you're in West Photo, tell them Lee said "Hello". Easy way to find out who was there in '81-'84.

    Lee
     
  10. ishutteratthethought

    ishutteratthethought Subscriber

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    will do Lee, i am excited to experiment with pyrocat. thanks for the info Andrew, let me know when the next APUG gathering is, wish I could have been there last week.
    Steve
     
  11. Alex Hawley

    Alex Hawley Member

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    TF-4 works great with Pyrocat.
     
  12. eddie gunks

    eddie gunks Member

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    keep us posted. i began using pyro hd about a year ago. i was using (and still do ) hc110. i bought my 1st batch of pyro and then i started mixing my own.....i think i have a life time supply of the necessary chemicals!

    i also do VDB with the negs. works great. only negative is my scanner hates them (but i am sure if i had more abilities i could do better at scanning.....i know slightly more than the neighborhood dog!) LOL

    i use foma110 at 1:1:100 for 12 min. and 2:2:100 for 7 1/2min

    cheers

    eddie
     
  13. Jim Fitzgerald

    Jim Fitzgerald Member

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    Steve, When I used Delta 100 in 4x5 I developed by the following method:
    5 minute pre-soak 72 degrees
    Developed in hangars @ 72 degrees with a minute and a half of agitation at the beginning and a 10-15 second agitation every three minutes. I think my time was 14 minutes.This is with the 1:1:150 dilution in tanks.
    Fix for 8 minutes in TF-4
    then wash for 20 minutes.
    Photoflo for a minute and hang to dry.

    I develop by inspection with a green safe light and pull the negatives when they are ready. Hope this helps.

    Jim
     
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  15. Thomas Bertilsson

    Thomas Bertilsson Subscriber

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    Steve, out of curiosity - why are you changing from D76? It's a good developer, the reference which all other developers are measured against... Well, sort of...

    I've used it with Delta 100, and find that most films require about 13 minutes at 70*F at the dilution you're using, with semi stand agitation (I agitate every three minutes). That's a good place to start. Foma will require less as a general rule of thumb, about 10 minutes likely. Tweak from there.

    Your fixer is fine. Like Andy, I use Hypam. It works just fine.

    - Thomas
     
  16. ishutteratthethought

    ishutteratthethought Subscriber

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    Hi Thomas, appreciate your comments.
    i have always been told to stay with what works and D-76 has worked great over the years, i don't plan on stopping, my darkroom is well stocked. I just want to try the Pyrocat and maybe other staining devlopers to see what effect i can get. I really like hwat I have seen so far in the gallery. I use to use Rodinal a lot in ye old days with great results. so I may pick up a bottle of that as well.

    Thomas, I see you have been using pyrocat, any pros-cons appreciated. I really like the results you have been getting.

    I am looking at being able to control the image as much as I can as far as getting to what my initial thought was any way. Using multiple developing tools/methods will help me attain that goal…………I hope.
    Thanks again,
    Steve
     
  17. Thomas Bertilsson

    Thomas Bertilsson Subscriber

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    I'm not going to argue with testing new things. It's healthy to do once you're good with a solid regimen with one developer.

    I am of the opinion that it matters a lot how you use your developer. Your D76 can be diluted, agitated differently, and adjusted temperature with to gain various results, almost as profound as switching developers.
    The thing you get with Pyrocat that you won't get with D76 is stain and extreme highlight compensation. The stain is very useful when printing on graded paper, but less profound with VC papers. At least I see a contrast shift with Pyrocat and Emaks while I don't see it with Ilford MGWT or Fotokemika Varycon. But it's a fine developer. I have come to like Rodinal better than Pyrocat for my own use, though. I get everything I want from Pyrocat with Rodinal, except the stain, but I can easily live without it. The ability to dilute Rodinal to 1+200, using only 500ml per film (2.5ml Rodinal per film, that's 200 rolls per bottle) and use semi stand and stand techniques for absolutely mindboggling sharpness, fine grain, and glorious midtones.
    Both are good. Both are fun. I've stopped using Pyrocat, because I cannot get it to work with Plus-X for some reason.

    - Thomas
     
  18. Ian Grant

    Ian Grant Subscriber

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    Like Thomas I've been using Pyrocat HD for some time now, over 3 years with a wide variety of films although predominantly Tmax 100 & Delta 100 & 400.

    My times are fairly similar at 1+1+100 around the 15 minute mark @ 20°C (68°F), only Foma films differ require 10 mins. I used to use Rodinal but prefer the tonality I get with Pyrocat.

    Like others have said Hypam works fine, it's not an "Acid Fixer" having a pH of around 5 - 5.5 it can be called a of Neutral fixer, Acid fixers are typically pH 3-4.

    Ian
     
  19. sanking

    sanking Member

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    To emphasize a few points already made, Pyrocat works with either an alkaline or slightly acidic fixer. My basic procedure is 1/2 strength acid stop bath, alkaline fixer (TF-3) and wash. This gives good image stain but low B+F stain.

    One additional comment. Make sure you keep the negatives moving around when fixing, especially if you are developing several negatives at a time in a tray with shuffle processing. There is a stain on the back of the film that needs to be removed and if you leave the film together in the tray for too long you may get uneven staining. Some film, TMAX-400 for example, needs more attention than other in this regard.

    Sandy
     
  20. Philippe-Georges

    Philippe-Georges Member

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    Steve,

    I have processed Ilford Delta 100 13x18 cm sheets (E.I. = 100 ASA) in Pyro-HD a few day's ago.
    This is what I did with fairly good results :

    JOBO 2500 System tank, model 2561, with 2 sheets standing up, emultion faced outward and separated by the centre rod (!). The sheets were held down with an empty reel. To avoid damaging the back of the film, I put some rubber bands around the rod, the tank is large enough in diameter to let the sheet stand almost not bendet, so the emultion would not touch the tank walls, in witch there are tiny ribs stopping the sheets from turning around the rod during the agitation. The down side is that I need 3 L of solution to fill the tank. But I use the developer twice, so I can process 4 sheets in batches of two. Not very convenient but doable. BTW, this can de done for 4"x5" sheets in a smaller tank.

    - Pre wet : tab water @ 20°C for the time needed to mix the working solution of the developer.
    - Developer : home brewed Sand King's Pyro-HD 1+1+100 @ 20°C for 15 min.. Agitation : 30 sec. at first, then each 60 sec. a gentle agitation for 5 sec. Save the developer for a second and immediate run, then use it for 16 min. to compensate for the degradation and ageing.
    - Stop bath : twice with tap water, for 30 sec. with constant agitation @ 20°C.
    - Fixer : alkaline C-41 colour fixer (what is left of an Agfa FX-U stock, 1+4), only used for B&W. Two bath, each of 2 min. with nearly constant agitation @ 20°C.
    - Wash : the first one, for 30 sec. running water @ +/- 20°C.
    - K.H.C.A.. : 2 min. @ 20 °C
    - Wash : the final one, for about 5 min, running tab water @ +/- 20°C set at a flow that is changing the whole contend of the tank for +/- three times. This is +/- 10,5 L in 5 min. as the total volume of the tank is about 3,5L.
    - Final bath : ADOSTAB for 2 min.
    - Dry : at room conditions

    This is what works for me, I hope you can find some useful information for your own processing.

    Good luck,

    Philippe

    P.S. Forgive me for my sloppy English.
     
  21. ishutteratthethought

    ishutteratthethought Subscriber

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    I developed my first pyrocat hd negs today with success!! They look well balanced as far as contrast is concerned.
    I will print and possibly post soon.

    Steve
     
  22. Mahler_one

    Mahler_one Member

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    Deleted...Sandy already answered the question!
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 6, 2008
  23. sanking

    sanking Member

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    The issue of stain as it affects differently VC and graded silver papers needs some clarification. Briefly, the difference is due to the fact that graded silver papers have a blue sensitive emulsion, whereas VC papers have blue and green sensitive components to the emulsion. It is stain density in relation to the green sensitive part of the emulsion of VC papers that causes highlight compensation.

    1. Graded Papers. The stain does not give any highlight compensation (shouldering, compression) when printing with graded papers. There may be some compensation from the developer exhausting if it is used at high dilution, as you might get some non-staining developers designed for this purpose, but the stain itself causes no compensation with graded papers.

    2. Printing on VC papers. There will be highlight compensation as long as the filtration allows a significant percentage of green light to reach the paper. Typically this would be the case with VC filters #3 and below, or when about equal amounts of yellow or magenta are dialed in on color enlargers, with cyan set to 0. Highlight compensation disappears for all practical purposes with filter #3.5 and above, or with an equivalent setting on the color head of y =12, M=65. The exact numbers will vary somewhat because of slight differences in spectral sensitivity of VC papers. The same concept applies to printing with separate green and blue light sources.

    This means that in order to get highlight compensation with a staining developer the negative should be developed to a fairly high average gradient so that you can reduce contrast by adding yellow filtration, which will affect the low contrast green sensitive part of the emulsion. If you do the opposite, i.e. develop the negatives to a low CI you will have to add magenta filtration to get sufficient contrast, and you eliminate the compensation in the highlights. My own tests suggest that you need to develop to a CI of about .70 or .75 when printing on VC papers with staining developers, a much higher CI than would be needed for a #2 graded silver paper.

    From time to time I read where people report no compensation with staining developers with VC papers. The above hopefully will explain why that is the case.

    Some of this may sound familiar to those who have seen my writings before on staining developers because I have said similar things in the past.

    Sandy King







     
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 7, 2008
  24. Philippe Grunchec

    Philippe Grunchec Member

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    Sandy,
    How does (the late) Rollei R3 behave in Pyrocat HD? Thanks in advance!
     
  25. sanking

    sanking Member

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    Hi Philippe,

    I don't have any personal experience with Rollei R3. I have developed the Rollei Pan 25 in Pyrocat-HD, using a very weak dilution of 1:1:150 with minimal agitation. I also developed the Pan 25 in a two-bath Pyrocat developer but recall the details.

    The Pan 25 is a very sharp film with virtually no grain but the emulsoin has sever curl which makes it difficult to keep flat in printing or scanning.

    Sandy King

     
  26. Leon

    Leon Member

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    hope this doesn't sound like too much of a silly question ... but how does split grade printing fit in with this? Would it be possible to get the benefit of the catechol highlight-effect by printing at a lower grade specifically for highlight gradation/ local contrast (as opposed to the usual grade 0 or 00 for the lightest highlight only with traditional split grade) whilst ignoring the shadows, then using a grade 5 to set the global contrast to where it is wanted?