Question About Swirly Bokeh on 6x6

Discussion in 'Medium Format Cameras and Accessories' started by Dan Quan, Sep 27, 2013.

  1. Dan Quan

    Dan Quan Subscriber

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    I have been pouring over the threads here and elsewhere on the interwebs and if i understand correctly the Swirly Bokeh is produced more easily when using a shorter focal length than would be considered "normal" for any given format.

    So for 6x6 one would have greater success using a focal length shorter than about 8cm, correct?

    But does that mean that using a medium long focal length will not produce the coveted Swirly Bokeh?

    Thanks for your time helping me [​IMG].
     
  2. Fotoguy20d

    Fotoguy20d Subscriber

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    Its perhaps a bit more complicated than that. Petzval sharpness rolls off away from the image center, and you get all sorts of effects as you move further away. But, they also have a fairly small angle of coverage. Generally, they were used to cover a smaller plate than they could to avoid those effects. The effect though, is also usually a function of lens speed - the faster, f3.8-ish lenses are more prone to swirl than the f5+ lenses. I've had good success with 5-6" lenses on 4x5 (But I dont think you'd get more thana hint of swirl with them on 6x6), with them swirling nicely and usually vignetting in the corners. I've also had success with 4" lenses on 3x4 polaroid film.

    Dan
     
  3. Chris Lange

    Chris Lange Member

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    Tessar based designs also produce this effect.
     
  4. elekm

    elekm Member

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    And Tessars (and Tessar types) will produce this when focused at medium distances at larger apertures.

    I have examples from a Rolleiflex with a Xenar, as well as a Super Ikonta 530/16 with a Tessar. Of course, I can't find them ...
     
  5. Dan Quan

    Dan Quan Subscriber

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    Great information! Thank you so much!
     
  6. Andrew Moxom

    Andrew Moxom Member

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    Not necessarily so. I use a 90mm Great Wall lens on my Hasselblad, as well as a Darlot petzval equivalent to around 150mm ... Both can exhibit swirly bokeh. Similarly one system I know that does the swirlies is the Kiev platform. Their Arsat 80mm or Volna 80mm f2.8 lenses will do it.
     
  7. MDR

    MDR Member

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    Some lens design are more prone to swirl than others-Triplets (Tessar, Ernostar and simple Triplets) wide open (until f5,6) and busy background say trees = very often swirl
    I believe the Sonnar is an exception,but my Rolleiflex Tessars and Rolleicord Triotars have a swirly Bokeh.
     
  8. Dan Quan

    Dan Quan Subscriber

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    This actually explains allot about the swirly effect I've seen in some old movies. Very helpful answers! Thank you all!

    Please everyone continue to chime in, I am likely not the only one who finds this useful, I hope.
     
  9. fran

    fran Member

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    Yes, I get it with a kiev 88cm with an 80mm lens - works best at f2.8 with the subject in the middle ground and a background with specular highlights (eg light through trees). By f4 its almost gone.

    Also, I use a Zeiss Voightlander Icarex 35mm and with the Zeiss Ultron lens I get this wide open as well.

    I think the simpler lens designs do it and if you want to pick up a lens that does it, then a search on flickr or elsewhere will help.

    example from the Kiev:

    [​IMG]
    Brother & Sister by francis morrin, on Flickr

    Fran
     
  10. Fixcinater

    Fixcinater Subscriber

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    Yashica D with the 3-element Yashikor 80mm f/3.5 set at f/3.5, not quite but close to minimum focus distance. There was at least 20ft to the next trees that are swirling.
     

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  11. Dr Croubie

    Dr Croubie Member

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    Strange, I'd never noticed it with my Volna 80 (or my Vega 90). I've got a roll of Delta3200 I shot yesterday with it, I'll see if there's anything swirly there.
    But more than likely I just haven't shot the right scene to show it off.

    The best lens that I've got for that effect is the Cyclop (or Helios) 85/1.5 for 35mm. That's equivalent of a 135/2.4 on a 6x6. I still get some swirlies with that lens on my d***l, that's like putting a 215/3.8 lens on a 6x6.
    But there's no equivalent to the cyclop in 6x6 unfortunately, without going to a real brass petzval...
     
  12. resummerfield

    resummerfield Subscriber

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    I agree! I also have the Helios 85mm f1.5, and to get the bokeh that I bought the lens for, I have to use it pretty much wide open. I know of no other lens that has the same results in 6x6.
     
  13. pasiasty

    pasiasty Member

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    Belar lenses, 80/3.5, used for most of Flexarets were relatively good in swirling.
     
  14. jdsanika

    jdsanika Subscriber

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    Yashica D w/Yashikor lens, shot f/3.5, trees about 15-20ft behind the sculpture.
     

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